GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Ad Orientem »

President Trump’s unfounded attacks on mail balloting are discouraging his own supporters from embracing the practice, according to polls and Republican leaders across the country, prompting growing alarm that one of the central strategies of his campaign is threatening GOP prospects in November.

Multiple public surveys show a growing divide between Democrats and Republicans about the security of voting by mail, with Republicans saying they are far less likely to trust it in November. In addition, party leaders in several states said they are encountering resistance among GOP voters who are being encouraged to vote absentee while also seeing the president describe mail voting as “rigged” and “fraudulent.”

As a result, state and local Republicans across the country fear they are falling dramatically behind in a practice that is expected to be key to voter turnout this year. Through mailers and Facebook ads, they are racing to promote absentee balloting among their own.

In the process, some Republican officials have tried to draw a distinction between “absentee ballots,” which Trump claims are secure, and “mail ballots,” which he has repeatedly attacked. The terms are typically used interchangeably.

Alabama Secretary of State John Merrill, describing a recent meeting with a group of Republican voters in Fort Payne, said he felt compelled to explain that there is only one kind of mail-in voting in Alabama, and that it is safe and secure.

“They were confused about two different kinds of mail-in balloting,” he said, “where one is ‘good’ and one is not.”

Merrill’s concerns were echoed by senior White House and campaign aides, as well as GOP operatives in numerous key states including Pennsylvania, Ohio and Iowa, who all spoke on the condition of anonymity to criticize the president.
Read the rest here...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Kbg »

In theory, all ballots mailed in should be checked against voter registration information as is the case with live voting. I just don't get his argument. And if the basic argument (not stated) is let's make it harder to vote because younger/poorer people won't vote then it's a poor and deeply cynical political tactic that is undemocratic and un-American. I live in a very red state that has had mail in voting for the last 5 years...convenient, easy, I love it. It encourages me to vote in every election because the hassle factor is way reduced. (Kinda like ordering online vs. going to brick and mortar...who does that anymore!?)
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (46.8 KiB) Viewed 4779 times
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2752
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Tortoise »

My understanding is that mail-in ballots that are specifically requested by certain voters are not the big fraud risk.

The big fraud risk comes when everyone is sent a mail-in ballot by default, meaning many ballots will end up at incorrect addresses, homes of deceased people, people who don’t usually vote, etc., and can potentially be gathered up and used to generate large numbers of fraudulent votes.
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

Tortoise wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:16 pm My understanding is that mail-in ballots that are specifically requested by certain voters are not the big fraud risk.

The big fraud risk comes when everyone is sent a mail-in ballot by default, meaning many ballots will end up at incorrect addresses, homes of deceased people, people who don’t usually vote, etc., and can potentially be gathered up and used to generate large numbers of fraudulent votes.
I could not imagine how I'd both know about where these ballots are landing and how to efficiently gather them. Seems like a not easy task?

For my town (maybe state) I got something in the mail for which I have to mail back to request a ballot by mail. Therefore not all will be receiving them. Of course, as people like me die or move then what you describe will happen over time.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2752
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Tortoise »

yankees60 wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:34 pm I could not imagine how I'd both know about where these ballots are landing and how to efficiently gather them. Seems like a not easy task?
Most apartment buildings, condo developments, etc. that have communal mail areas have a big recycling bin next to the mailboxes that people can toss their junk mail into. It would be pretty easy to dig through a bunch of those bins around the time the ballots are mailed out.

That’s just one example.
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

Tortoise wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:45 pm
yankees60 wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:34 pm I could not imagine how I'd both know about where these ballots are landing and how to efficiently gather them. Seems like a not easy task?
Most apartment buildings, condo developments, etc. that have communal mail areas have a big recycling bin next to the mailboxes that people can toss their junk mail into. It would be pretty easy to dig through a bunch of those bins around the time the ballots are mailed out.

That’s just one example.
I now see. Living in a rural neighborhood that type of setup did not first come to mind.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1338
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by glennds »

Tortoise wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:16 pm My understanding is that mail-in ballots that are specifically requested by certain voters are not the big fraud risk.

The big fraud risk comes when everyone is sent a mail-in ballot by default, meaning many ballots will end up at incorrect addresses, homes of deceased people, people who don’t usually vote, etc., and can potentially be gathered up and used to generate large numbers of fraudulent votes.
Where is this occurring? I read your comment to mean there are counties that are mailing ballots to all voters whether they want them or not.
Do these counties do this in lieu of physical polling stations, meaning you do not have the option of voting in person?

Again, I'd be interested to know where this is the case, and if it is happening, is it pandemic driven, or has it been practice for a while?
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Kbg »

Tortoise wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:16 pm My understanding is that mail-in ballots that are specifically requested by certain voters are not the big fraud risk.

The big fraud risk comes when everyone is sent a mail-in ballot by default, meaning many ballots will end up at incorrect addresses, homes of deceased people, people who don’t usually vote, etc., and can potentially be gathered up and used to generate large numbers of fraudulent votes.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whiteh ... dcases.pdf

Personally, I think we should get rid of in-person voting and voter registration as well. I mean hey, if we are going to worry about and ban mail in voting we gotta git rid of that other fraud as well.

I assume the source of my information is acceptable by those who are concerned about this issue. The source is a definite right, not crazy right, but generally reputable DC think tank.

Now a little context from what most non-agenda observers will assess as a left-centrist DC think tank. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2 ... the-risks/

Yep this is a HUUUGGGGGEEEE problem in the five states that have actually been doing it.

Guide to think tanks...https://www.citizensource.com/Opinion&P ... kTanks.htm

I actually had a semester course at a college in the DC area that was all about think tanks including weekly visits to several in the area of all persuasions. It's where I discovered libertarian domestic policy is for nut cases/people completely detached from the way the world actually works but I was highly persuaded by their foreign policy approach...and it was a really cool course to be exposed to a broad range of thought.

My personal take...Trump is doing what he does. Don't like the answer, discredit the source anyway you can. Could be wrong, but I think he's going to lose the election and he knows it...so gotta start the spin now that the election was stolen (just like the Dems did last election...frankly this is really scary stuff and if it keeps up will discredit the whole process and I really hope I'm not around if that day comes.)
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2752
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Tortoise »

glennds wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:50 pm
Tortoise wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:16 pm My understanding is that mail-in ballots that are specifically requested by certain voters are not the big fraud risk.

The big fraud risk comes when everyone is sent a mail-in ballot by default, meaning many ballots will end up at incorrect addresses, homes of deceased people, people who don’t usually vote, etc., and can potentially be gathered up and used to generate large numbers of fraudulent votes.
Where is this occurring? I read your comment to mean there are counties that are mailing ballots to all voters whether they want them or not.
Do these counties do this in lieu of physical polling stations, meaning you do not have the option of voting in person?

Again, I'd be interested to know where this is the case, and if it is happening, is it pandemic driven, or has it been practice for a while?
It's not just some counties doing it; entire states are doing it. It's kind of a mixed bag; some states like Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, and Utah have been doing primarily mail-in ballots for years, whereas other states like California, Arizona, and Nevada have recently been pushing for primarily mail-in ballots due to the pandemic (or at least that's the publicly stated excuse).

For the latter group of pandemic-driven states, their plan is to mail ballots to all registered voters. But my understanding is that each registered voter still has the option of voting in person if he or she chooses.

This web page summarizes the mail-in ballot plan for each state.
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2752
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Tortoise »

@Kbg, I just skimmed the links you provided. The gist seems to be that the number of detected cases of mail-in ballot fraud is relatively small, and you seem to be asserting that we can therefore conclude that it's not much of a problem.

However, do we know what fraction of actual cases of mail-in ballot fraud are detected vs. undetected? Is it possible that for every detected case, there may be many undetected cases? That's often the situation with various kinds of crime like shoplifting, in which the detected occurrences are just the tip of the iceberg.

For what it's worth, I think the whole mail-in voting debate would be moot if we had a secure method of casting votes electronically (e.g., from smartphones and computers). It seems like our 21st century technology should be capable of verifying voter identities more accurately and robustly than the antiquated and subjective method of humans looking at physical signatures.
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

NOW on C-Span Washington Journal!

Until 8:45 AM. NO commercials.

"Mail-In Voting & Election Security"

David Becker - Center for Election Innovation & Research, Founder & Executive Director

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:07 am NOW on C-Span Washington Journal!

Until 8:45 AM. NO commercials.

"Mail-In Voting & Election Security"

David Becker - Center for Election Innovation & Research, Founder & Executive Director

Vinny
This is EXCELLENT! He is answering a lot of basic concerns that have been expressed here.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Kbg »

Tortoise wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:35 am @Kbg, I just skimmed the links you provided. The gist seems to be that the number of detected cases of mail-in ballot fraud is relatively small, and you seem to be asserting that we can therefore conclude that it's not much of a problem.

However, do we know what fraction of actual cases of mail-in ballot fraud are detected vs. undetected? Is it possible that for every detected case, there may be many undetected cases? That's often the situation with various kinds of crime like shoplifting, in which the detected occurrences are just the tip of the iceberg.

For what it's worth, I think the whole mail-in voting debate would be moot if we had a secure method of casting votes electronically (e.g., from smartphones and computers). It seems like our 21st century technology should be capable of verifying voter identities more accurately and robustly than the antiquated and subjective method of humans looking at physical signatures.
Yes, or at least no more serious than other types of voting fraud. However, I am in complete agreement with your bottom line and would like to see something along those lines as well. Sounds like a perfect thing for block chain technology (or whatever is secure and works.)
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4552
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Xan »

Kbg wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:42 pm
Tortoise wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:35 am @Kbg, I just skimmed the links you provided. The gist seems to be that the number of detected cases of mail-in ballot fraud is relatively small, and you seem to be asserting that we can therefore conclude that it's not much of a problem.

However, do we know what fraction of actual cases of mail-in ballot fraud are detected vs. undetected? Is it possible that for every detected case, there may be many undetected cases? That's often the situation with various kinds of crime like shoplifting, in which the detected occurrences are just the tip of the iceberg.

For what it's worth, I think the whole mail-in voting debate would be moot if we had a secure method of casting votes electronically (e.g., from smartphones and computers). It seems like our 21st century technology should be capable of verifying voter identities more accurately and robustly than the antiquated and subjective method of humans looking at physical signatures.
Yes, or at least no more serious than other types of voting fraud. However, I am in complete agreement with your bottom line and would like to see something along those lines as well. Sounds like a perfect thing for block chain technology (or whatever is secure and works.)
Are you guys talking about ending the secret ballot?
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:17 am
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:07 am NOW on C-Span Washington Journal!

Until 8:45 AM. NO commercials.

"Mail-In Voting & Election Security"

David Becker - Center for Election Innovation & Research, Founder & Executive Director

Vinny
This is EXCELLENT! He is answering a lot of basic concerns that have been expressed here.

Vinny
Now you can watch it whenever you can fit it into your life. I generally listen to Washington Journal while I'm at these keyboard doing something else.

If you really are interested in a lot of answers to concerns about voting you'll get your answers here. He maintained several times that if you try to vote fraudulently, you WILL get caught.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?474403-3/ ... ail-voting

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

Libertarian666 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:09 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:45 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:17 am
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:07 am NOW on C-Span Washington Journal!

Until 8:45 AM. NO commercials.

"Mail-In Voting & Election Security"

David Becker - Center for Election Innovation & Research, Founder & Executive Director

Vinny
This is EXCELLENT! He is answering a lot of basic concerns that have been expressed here.

Vinny
Now you can watch it whenever you can fit it into your life. I generally listen to Washington Journal while I'm at these keyboard doing something else.

If you really are interested in a lot of answers to concerns about voting you'll get your answers here. He maintained several times that if you try to vote fraudulently, you WILL get caught.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?474403-3/ ... ail-voting

Vinny
Exactly how could that be proven? Does he have a list of all the people who tried to vote fraudulently so he can guarantee that they all got caught?

That's like claiming you have a list of all the unknown problems in a system.
I was not giving the presentation my full attention. But you have to supply a lot of unique information so as to get your ballot counted. And, I got the impression that do catch quite a few. But that is my not giving full attention impression. To give him justice you'd need to listen to him yourself.
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (47.7 KiB) Viewed 4801 times
VInny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

Libertarian666 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:30 pm
Libertarian666 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:09 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:45 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:17 am
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:07 am NOW on C-Span Washington Journal!

Until 8:45 AM. NO commercials.

"Mail-In Voting & Election Security"

David Becker - Center for Election Innovation & Research, Founder & Executive Director

Vinny
This is EXCELLENT! He is answering a lot of basic concerns that have been expressed here.

Vinny
Now you can watch it whenever you can fit it into your life. I generally listen to Washington Journal while I'm at these keyboard doing something else.

If you really are interested in a lot of answers to concerns about voting you'll get your answers here. He maintained several times that if you try to vote fraudulently, you WILL get caught.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?474403-3/ ... ail-voting

Vinny
Exactly how could that be proven? Does he have a list of all the people who tried to vote fraudulently so he can guarantee that they all got caught?

That's like claiming you have a list of all the unknown problems in a system.
I was not giving the presentation my full attention. But you have to supply a lot of unique information so as to get your ballot counted. And, I got the impression that do catch quite a few. But that is my not giving full attention impression. To give him justice you'd need to listen to him yourself.

Capture.JPG

VInny
The claim on the tweet that Washington and Oregon are run by Republicans is a complete and total lie.
The governors of both states are Democrats, and not just any Democrats: extreme leftist Democrats.
I'm sure you can see that because of such a blatant lie, anything else he says on this topic (or any other, really) can and should be disregarded.
Hope that helps.
Don't know if you know this. But it is not governors who oversee elections. It is each state's secretary of state.

You will see that Oregon's current secretary of state is a certified Republican: https://sos.oregon.gov/Pages/meet-the-secretary.aspx.

Hope that helps.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
yankees60
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10434
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by yankees60 »

Libertarian666 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:30 pm
Libertarian666 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:09 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:45 pm
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:17 am
yankees60 wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:07 am NOW on C-Span Washington Journal!

Until 8:45 AM. NO commercials.

"Mail-In Voting & Election Security"

David Becker - Center for Election Innovation & Research, Founder & Executive Director

Vinny
This is EXCELLENT! He is answering a lot of basic concerns that have been expressed here.

Vinny
Now you can watch it whenever you can fit it into your life. I generally listen to Washington Journal while I'm at these keyboard doing something else.

If you really are interested in a lot of answers to concerns about voting you'll get your answers here. He maintained several times that if you try to vote fraudulently, you WILL get caught.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?474403-3/ ... ail-voting

Vinny
Exactly how could that be proven? Does he have a list of all the people who tried to vote fraudulently so he can guarantee that they all got caught?

That's like claiming you have a list of all the unknown problems in a system.
I was not giving the presentation my full attention. But you have to supply a lot of unique information so as to get your ballot counted. And, I got the impression that do catch quite a few. But that is my not giving full attention impression. To give him justice you'd need to listen to him yourself.

Capture.JPG

VInny
The claim on the tweet that Washington and Oregon are run by Republicans is a complete and total lie.
The governors of both states are Democrats, and not just any Democrats: extreme leftist Democrats.
I'm sure you can see that because of such a blatant lie, anything else he says on this topic (or any other, really) can and should be disregarded.
Hope that helps.
Don't know if you know this. But it is not governors who oversee elections. It is each state's secretary of state.

You will see that Oregon's current secretary of state is a certified Republican: https://sos.oregon.gov/Pages/meet-the-secretary.aspx.

Hope that helps.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Kbg
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Kbg »

Xan wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:21 pm Are you guys talking about ending the secret ballot?
I think we are talking the system is very antiquated and could use a modernization effort of some kind. In my view, one that is both secure and highly convenient would be nice.

In 2016 we were all freaked out about electronic in person voting being hacked in order to alter votes...personally, I think the possibility to, on a large very scale, alter votes is way more problematic with electronic voting than mail in voting.

My .02...for national elections electronic voting is the bigger threat. For local elections mail in is probably the larger threat.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by Ad Orientem »

Side Note: I just got an email notification for this thread. That's the first email notification I have received for any thread I have commented on here in close to a year. Hmmm.
User avatar
drumminj
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:16 pm

Re: GOP fears Trump attacks on mail in voting will discourage their own voters

Post by drumminj »

Ad Orientem wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:51 pm Side Note: I just got an email notification for this thread. That's the first email notification I have received for any thread I have commented on here in close to a year. Hmmm.
Xan mentioned in another thread that the email daemon for the forum hadn't been running. I suspect that's what was sending out the notifications before, and now that it's live again they're going out again.

I actually liked not getting a ton of notifications, but never figured out how to avoid getting auto-subscribed to threads :/
Post Reply