Forks Over Knives

[Coffee]

Interesting documentary on Netflix.  Check it out.

Could have been better if they had at least included the counter-argument to their Vegan propaganda, and then let the viewer come to his own conclusion.  But worth watching, nonetheless.

We also saw "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" which was even more entertaining.  Ran out and bought a Jack La Lane juicer from BB&B. LOL.

[SmallPotatoes]

We just watched this too, and have had our Jack LaLane Juicer for quite a while now.

My wife was a chef by trade and I was the world's #1 meat eater, but we went vegan years ago and haven't looked back.  Animals have to suffer and die every day, so we can have heart disease, obesity, and things like Mad Cow and Avian Flu... no thanks.  We've evolved.  We drive cars, use the Internet, and watch movies in 3D on our HDTV's.  Our diets are still 2000 years old.  Time to get with technology. We can live off the fruits of the earth, preserve our planet, increase our health, and stop bloody killing poor, defenseless, frightened, abused animals.

It might sound like blasphemy, but hey, they used to think the world was flat.

[Coffee]

[Just in case anybody else is reading this thread: The documentary has nothing to do with animal rights, or even eating Vegan as a political statement.]

I personally see nothing wrong-- from a moral standpoint-- with eating animals.  It's the law of the jungle.  Animals kill and eat other animals.  But now we're getting off-topic.

[SmallPotatoes]

[Just in case anybody else is reading this thread: The documentary has nothing to do with animal rights, or even eating Vegan as a political statement.]

I personally see nothing wrong-- from a moral standpoint-- with eating animals.  It's the law of the jungle.  Animals kill and eat other animals.  But now we're getting off-topic.

Law of the Jungle?  We've abandoned (IMO) any jungle laws long ago.  In fact, take a trip to your nearest factory farm and if they let you tour the facility (they won't...because it's too horrific) you will see cattle being mechanically raped, produce off-spring that are then pumped up with growth hormones, live a terrible, miserable existence around blood and feces, only to be slaughtered, perhaps ripped out of its skin alive--not all kills are efficient, clean and swift, mind you--frozen, and trucked over to your grocery store, restaurant, or fast food chain.

When is the last time any of us caught and killed something in the wild?  Humans have a moral choice to make.  Lions don't garden.

Why not eat dogs?  Animal shelters put down thousands of strays every year and that's just meat going to waste.

Also, if you still think it's Law of Jungle may I remind you that many animals also eat plants.  Giraffes, rhinos, gorillas, elephants, geese, deer, and horses, to name a few.

Maybe it is off topic, but I'm convinced that we've yet to evolve our diets to the standard of our other technology, and that the mass production and slaughter of animals is not only harmful to our planet (waste, methane gas), but also to our bodies as illustrated in Forks over Knives.

[Indices]

But don't animals eat other animals? And don't they eat them alive and screaming generally? I'm not sure I understand the morality angle.

I've been to a slaughter house and I thought the way they killed the animal was quick and painless.

[Coffee]

Craig made a post several months ago that really stuck with me: He mentioned that when he took the Canteberry survival course, the point that "it's a calorie game" made a big impression on him.  There is no way you can consume enough calories to survive, just picking fruits and berries.

I'll add: Just because our living conditions have evolved does not necessarily mean that our biological systems have evolved with it.  And in many parts of the world, they do eat dogs.  I am a dog lover.  I don't want anybody eating my dog.  But I'd have no problem eating a dog that was bred to be eaten, if it was killed in a humane manner.  My landlord is a Chinese national.  We had this discussion, and he told me that dog was actually quite good. 

I told him that it didn't bother me if he eats dogs in China, but if he tried to eat my dog I would kill him and then burn down his house.  LOL.

Just out of curiosity: Does your moral position preclude you from eating snakes, too?
And what about clothing? Do you not wear leather?

[Storm]

Humans evolved to be omnivores.  But, after seeing what the conditions are like for animals bred for human consumption (watch Food, Inc.), I don't fault anyone for choosing not to contribute to the factory farming operations that make it possible to abuse life on such a large scale.

Also, if the entire 6 billion population of the world decided to eat as much meat as the US does, the earth could not sustain the biomass necessary to feed all of us.

I love meat myself, and will probably never give it up if given the choice, but I try to buy sustainably raised meat when I can afford it, as it is probably better for you and better for the animals.  I pay a little more for free range chickens and grass fed beef.  I think you can actually taste the difference - corn fed is definitely not as good as grass fed, and not as good for you.

I'd probably live much longer if I ate a traditional Chinese diet.  They use mostly vegetables with a very small amount of meat added for flavor.  Meat is just so expensive and rare when you are eating on pennies a day, that they have to make it last.  In the end, you get an incredibly healthy diet that increases your life expectancy, at the price of not being able to go to Outback and order a 22 ounce porterhouse...

[Coffee]

... but the trade off is: You're eating like a peasant.  

- Just as an academic argument: I wonder if the people who decry the inhumane treatment of animals have ever heard the screams of a live rabbit being eaten by a fox over a period of about 20 minutes?

- Regarding "if everybody ate like us" argument: I chose not to have kids.  If everybody thought like me, the human race would cease to exist in one generation.  But everybody doesn't make the decisions I make, so it's a moot point.

- RE: Grass fed: I've heard that, too.  But when I lived in Costa Rica, all of the beef was grass fed.  It was terrible.  Stringy and chewey.  I don't know if that was because of breed of cattle or what?  The when we'd drive by the lots where they raised the cattle, they always looked like skin and bones, too.  Not sure how that relates to our discussion, but I thought it was an interesting side-note.  

[Storm]

- RE: Grass fed: I've heard that, too.  But when I lived in Costa Rica, all of the beef was grass fed.  It was terrible.  Stringy and chewey.  I don't know if that was because of breed of cattle or what?  The when we'd drive by the lots where they raised the cattle, they always looked like skin and bones, too.  Not sure how that relates to our discussion, but I thought it was an interesting side-note.  

Grass fed beef from New Zealand and Australia is quite tasty.  I've also had some really good grass fed beef from upstate NY - when it was on sale at Whole Foods.  The idea of paying $15 a pound for beef is a little too much for me, but when it was $7.99 a pound for grass fed, locally farmed, I jumped on it.  Those steaks were very good.

[SmallPotatoes]

But don't animals eat other animals? And don't they eat them alive and screaming generally? I'm not sure I understand the morality angle.

I've been to a slaughter house and I thought the way they killed the animal was quick and painless.

Indices, next time you visit the zoo jump into the tiger pen, or the lion corral.  Give the animal kingdom you feel so dominate over a chance to prove itself.  Regardless of how seemingly quick or painless an animal dies a living, breathing, creature content on living and breathing dies for some zombie fetish.  If you think it's so simple why don't you just run through the slaughterhouse yourself?  Exactly.

Some animals do eat other animals.  Some animals eat plants.  Some animals eat both.  Humans have a choice.

Animals are amoral; they don't have the faintest sense of right or wrong, what's best to do or to avoid.  However, every choice a human makes is moral because when we act we do what we think is best at the given moment though almost endless possibilities exist.  Do I eat then exercise or exercise and then eat?  Should I watch TV or get on the Internet? Leave early to get to the airport?  Do I buy local or from China?  Should I wear black or white to the funeral?  Those are all moral choices because they deal with a valuation of what is good, better, and best.

Here's what I do:  I do my best.  I own a pair of leather shoes and have for over 10 years.  Will I toss them to prove a point?  No.  But, when the time comes I will replace them with a non-animal option if one exists.  See, most of you are living in the past, because in a Brave New World sense, you're conditioned to like the things you like.  You don't question it, you just obey it and do what has always been done.  We have the technology, alternative energy sources, alternative food sources and even alternative music, but as long as people demand beef and eggs, animals will suffer, the Earth will suffer, and the environment will suffer.  If any of you can see past your own wants and do what is truly good, you would start cutting back immediately.

A 'calorie game' is a terrible way to justify eating animals.  Who here has killed, cleaned, and cooked anything ever?  Who does that for even one out of ten meals?  You'll burn more calories hunting and processing a kill than you will growing rice or corn, climbing a tree for coconuts or simply eating grass like so many cattle do.  Sure, if you're stranded in the Mohave it might come down to you or a rabbit, but this isn't the 1800's and most of us aren't in extreme survival situations, so how is that relevant?  I would guess the most of us eat out once a week, frequent a Wal-Mart, and buy breakfast from Burger King.

As for the myth of sustainable, local farming... it's bunk.  Total and complete crap.  A distraction and nothing more.  Sorry, but that's how farming started years ago.  Demand increased and those small operations couldn't provide, so along comes factory farming and the rest is history.  So, you say that you're only going to eat local, cruelty-free animals.  Okay.  Well, here's one thing: everyone cannot do this or else the demand would surpass the supply just like it did 60 years ago.  So, while some people can eat some animals under seemingly better conditions, not everyone can and not all the time.  History has shown this to be true already.  Also, cruelty-free is a joke.  The cruelest part of eating animals is killing them.  If an animal is raised poorly it should welcome death, but only because living is so horrific.  If it lives well, why would it want to die?

I understand that most of you are done evolving, but I'm not.

[l82start]

I understand that most of you are done evolving, but I'm not.

 

condescending sense of superiority, loses audience, and potently good arguments go to waste....  

[MediumTex]

I watched the movie this evening.

Excellent.

This movie and "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" make for a serious one-two pumch in favor of eating better.

I was walking around the grocery store today and most of the aisles started to look like the concession stand at a movie theater--just garbage that looks interesting or tastes exciting when you put it in your mouth.

I thought to myself: "Most of this stuff was never intended to be nutritious; it's sort of like financial news--it's just here for entertainment."

[stone]

Small Potatoes, if we just ate meat or milk or eggs occassionally wouldn't it work? I eat meat once a week and make sure it is free range. I like beans and veg etc and eat that the rest of the time.  Don't get me wrong, I have no objections to Vegans and do object to factory farming. To my mind having a few happy chickens, out in the sun, clucking away, running in the grass, is one of the least nasty effects of my consumer lifestyle. 

[Coffee]

I watched the movie this evening.

Excellent.

This movie and "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" make for a serious one-two pumch in favor of eating better.

I was walking around the grocery store today and most of the aisles started to look like the concession stand at a movie theater--just garbage that looks interesting or tastes exciting when you put it in your mouth.

I thought to myself: "Most of this stuff was never intended to be nutritious; it's sort of like financial news--it's just here for entertainment."

I bought a juicer.  Been juicing, just for lunch.  Been going through copious amounts of fruit and veggies.  It gives me the shits and leaves me starving.  I think if you're a fatty, it's probably a good crash diet to get you straightened out. You'll be taking in far fewer calories than you were, before.  However-- not being a fatty, I can report that: My stomach got huge.  (I attribute this to all of the sugar in the fruit). 

About four days ago, I switched to juicing every other day.  Still a lot more fruits and veggies than I was getting, before. We'll see how it goes.

[Jan Van]

Always liked this tshirt...
[img]http://<table%20style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a%20href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/L3E9EZm-An_W951-YR9XMg?feat=embedwebsite"><img%20src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mx0g8Pcb6LM/TnMDs3USe-I/AAAAAAAAASc/Lm-WPLPKKm0/s800/636x460shirt_guys_01.jpg"%20height="460"%20width="636"%20/></a></td></tr><tr><td%20style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;%20font-size:11px;%20text-align:right">From%20<a%20href="https://picasaweb.google.com/jan.vanmourik/September162011?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">September%2016,%202011</a></td></tr></table>[/img]
threadless...

No, I don't think I could be a vegan. Doesn't jell with my Primal livestyle! 

[Lone Wolf]

Regardless of how seemingly quick or painless an animal dies a living, breathing, creature content on living and breathing dies for some zombie fetish.

It's unlikely that without a demand for milk products and meat that the cow would have even lived in the first place.  So if the death truly is painless, is it better that the cow never have existed in the first place?

Having said that, if one of my ancestors was strangling me and making the above argument as a reason for the murder, I would no doubt find it highly unconvincing. 

By the way, an interesting "futurist" idea is animal muscle tissue that is grown in a laboratory and was never part of an actual animal.  This is called "in vitro meat" and has been successfully produced.  Hardcore vegans could even theoretically grow tissue seeded from their own skin cells and partake in a sort of pseudo-self-cannibalism. 

SmallPotatoes, if in vitro meat were affordable, would you partake?

[Wonk]

SmallPotatoes, if in vitro meat were affordable, would you partake?

Bravo, Lone Wolf!  Way to toss the proverbial fly in the ointment.  Militant vegetarians have a rather annoying way of distinguishing between right and wrong.  The IV meat topic is an interesting curveball in the debate.  I personally wouldn't trust the IV meat--pretty much the same with GMO foods (although I can't get rid of them all). 

I've read through and thought long and hard about the meat issue and I'm not going to be a vegetarian.  Perhaps it's my zombie bloodlust that clouds my mind, but I'm ok with killing animals and eating them.  It's the natural circle of life, and I choose to participate in it.  In fact, I just started hunting in the last few years after never growing up with it.  I didn't think it was right for me to eat an animal that I wouldn't be prepared to kill myself.  As a pet owner and animal lover in general, I've reconciled the issue quite well.  I think all meat eaters should go hunting at least once.  It was both sobering and enlightening for me, although I can't promise everyone will think the same way.  Perhaps others will turn vegetarian--which is their choice.

For what it's worth, I do find the factory farming operations absolutely unhealthy, unethical and downright reprehensible.  In my opinion, animals are to be treated ethically--which includes open pasture to feed on, normal living conditions and a humane death.

The problem with militant vegetarianism is that it routinely runs parallels with religious zealotry.  The "I've found the one pure truth and anyone who disagrees is an uneducated barbarian" effect.  If someone doesn't want to eat meat, fine.  But don't tell me I'm not evolved enough yet to understand the issue.  I understand enough to know that if the world ever became bad enough to resort to cannibalism, I'd eat a vegetarian first.  They would be likely be the weakest of the herd.

[MediumTex]

For what it's worth, I do find the factory farming operations absolutely unhealthy, unethical and downright reprehensible.  In my opinion, animals are to be treated ethically--which includes open pasture to feed on, normal living conditions and a humane death.

It seems as if every example of corporate consolidation across an entire industry leads to all sorts of ugliness, whether it is consolidation of the railroads a century ago, or the food production industry more recently.  (Other examples that come to mind include banking and healthcare.)

It's like the people who run these large companies leave their humanity at home when they go to work each day.

"Food, Inc." is a great introduction to how nasty our food industry has become (both ethically and literally). 

(It streams on Netflix)

http://www.foodincmovie.com/

[moda0306]

It makes me wonder whether there shouldn't be a much more aggressive (not necessarily high-taxes so much as very progressive) corporate income tax.  This would be one that is low for most small cap stocks, but as you get into some of these megacorp size companies, the level of taxation becomes a hinderance to it continuing to compete with smaller companies.

It would be kind of a natural anti-trust inhibitor instead of the failed process we seem to have now.

[Storm]

It makes me wonder whether there shouldn't be a much more aggressive (not necessarily high-taxes so much as very progressive) corporate income tax.  This would be one that is low for most small cap stocks, but as you get into some of these megacorp size companies, the level of taxation becomes a hinderance to it continuing to compete with smaller companies.

It would be kind of a natural anti-trust inhibitor instead of the failed process we seem to have now.

I would be against anything like that.  After all, there are large companies that are run ethically.  All we really need to do is regulate and enforce strict standards.  The problem with government regulation is that most of the people working at the FDA and any other regulatory body like it are industry insiders.  It's the fox guarding the henhouse.  If you really had tough animal husbandry regulations and companies were fined huge as in $millions (can't write it off as an operating expense) then you would see these factory farming businesses change.

We don't need any orwellian "big business taxes", we just need to enforce the laws on the books.

[Storm]

I just caught "Forks over Knives" on Netflix.  It was an interesting show, but seemed light on the science and data.  I understand they did a huge study in China, but I would have liked to see more REAL data to support the claims that eating meat and dairy causes cancer.

For one thing, I know the traditional Chinese diet consists of a small amount of meat and a lot of rice and fresh vegetables and fruits.  There are few Chinese that are strict vegan/vegetarians.  They eat smaller amounts of meat simply because there is less of it in a rural village lifestyle.

I understand the study showed pretty conclusively that rural Chinese had a lower incidence of cancer than Chinese living in a city, but I think what I would like to see in a properly done study is controlling against other factors.  For example, in cities people eat more packaged and processed foods, where in a rural community people eat more whole foods.  Regardless of vegetarian/diet, I would like to see controlling whole foods vs. packaged foods and how that relates to cancer incidence.  I would also like to see control against environmental pollution and other cancer risk factors like smoking, pollution, etc.

You might say "that's great, these people that live in the village eat mostly vegetables and a little meat, and have really low cancer.  These people that live in the city eat more meat and have more cancer."  But, that largely ignores that the people that live in the city have a number of other risk factors:

1.  Higher rate of smoking.
2.  More processed, packaged, and fast foods.
3.  Less exercise because they're more likely to work in an office than with their hands.
4.  More environmental pollution and other cancer risk factors.

The movie was interesting, but it seemed highly biased towards a plant-based diet.  The researchers were obviously vegetarians and wanted to push an agenda.

My personal opinion is that a diet with a smaller amount of red meat, more fish and lean meat, as well as WHOLE food based (nothing processed) is just as healthy for you as a pure vegan diet, plus you don't need to worry as much about protein deficiencies and other nutrient deficiencies.

[dualstow]

Just found it on iTunes. I don't have Netflix, but it looks like I could buy this for $10 or rent it for $4 for my upcoming flight to China.
I'm not a vegan or even a vegetarian, but I have cut down on meat for ethical reasons.

'Food Inc' was a really good documentary and 'Fast Food Nation' was an excellent book. Looking forward to reading some Michael Pollan when I get back to the States.

[Wonk]

Since there are a couple of low-carb & meat ethics threads out there at the moment, I thought I'd revisit this one.  I recently watched this documentary and on the surface it can be pretty convincing to most viewers.  Unfortunately, it was filled like kielbasa with factual errors and erroneous data cherry picking.  Thankfully, someone (who incidentally is not much of a meat eater) spent the time to completely dismantle the comedy of errors that became of this film:

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks- ... -critique/

It's really unfortunate.  They could have made a documentary about how removing processed foods out of the diet and replacing them with fruits and vegetables enhances health and vitality.  Instead, they went bat shit crazy with the vegan propaganda.

[moda0306]

Wonk,

Have you seen Food, Inc?  What did you think of that?  It seemed pretty legitimate to me, if a bit agenda-driven.

[Wonk]

Moda,

I loved Food, Inc. and thought it was really well done.  The difference between Food, Inc and Forks Over Knives is that Food, Inc just shed light on the facts, whereas Forks Over Knives took bits and pieces of data and twisted them completely out of context to fit an agenda they hoped to propagate.  I have a problem with that.  If people want to change hearts and minds, do it in complete transparency.  Otherwise, there's zero credibility.