Gun suggestions

[BearBones]

With all of the talk over the years about guns, ammo, and leather chaps (most recently by MangoMan in this forum:http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ht ... hp?t=95.15), I too am rethinking my position on personal gun ownership (and chaps, of course). If those of you familiar with guns were asked what to buy for a SHTF scenario (both for hunting and self defense), what would you suggest? Assume that you have no guns now, gun purchases might be restricted in the near future (so this is potentially your last chance to buy), price is not much of an issue, and you could diversify among 2-4 styles.

[Bean]

Most guns fit a distinct purpose, and here are my top choices for each purpose.  Remember price, accessibility, and ballistics of a round are also important.  This is why I am a big fan of the 45ACP, 22lr, 12 gauge shotgun shells in many varieties, 223/556, and .308

Plinker - Ruger 10/22

Shotgun - Mossberg 500 (Remington 870 or Saiga 12)

Handgun - 1911 (I have both high end in a Kimber and my new favorite Rock Island Armory, which is crazy cheap)

Semi Auto Rifle - AR 15 Rifle (w/ a classic A2 upper, flat upper with gadgets, and accessories to configure to any purpose)

Bolt Action Rifle - Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle (or Remington 700 in .308)

For a true SHTF I would wearing at all times a MOLLE Vest and carrying a 1911, Ka-Bar Black Kukri Machete, the "10 essentials", and my AR 15 on a single point sling loaded with military steel core rounds.  On a side note, I would strongly suggest learning skills in trapping, guns will only carry you so far.

[AdamA]

I think a good revolver is best for someone who wants to keep things simple. 

[Reub]

Most guns fit a distinct purpose, and here are my top choices for each purpose. Remember price, accessibility, and ballistics of a round are also important. This is why I am a big fan of the 45ACP, 22lr, 12 gauge shotgun shells in many varieties, 223/556, and .308

Plinker - Ruger 10/22

Shotgun - Mossberg 500 (Remington 870 or Saiga 12)

Handgun - 1911 (I have both high end in a Kimber and my new favorite Rock Island Armory, which is crazy cheap)

Semi Auto Rifle - AR 15 Rifle (w/ a classic A2 upper, flat upper with gadgets, and accessories to configure to any purpose)

Bolt Action Rifle - Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle (or Remington 700 in .308)

For a true SHTF I would wearing at all times a MOLLE Vest and carrying a 1911, Ka-Bar Black Kukri Machete, the "10 essentials", and my AR 15 on a single point sling loaded with military steel core rounds. On a side note, I would strongly suggest learning skills in trapping, guns will only carry you so far.

nice choices, i have drooled over the gun-site/cooper scout rifles for a long time and am also still missing the shot gun, but you have basically hit my dream list, i am also fond of the "marlin camp rifle/carbine" 45 acp that takes the same magazine as the 1911 a nice shtf combination..

I live in New York City and am not allowed to protect myself.

[MediumTex]

I have always thought that a trio of a nice pump shotgun, an AR-15-style rifle and a .357 magnum revolver would be very nice.  Substituting a Glock 9mm for the .357 is fine.

Outside of those weapons, a nice .22 semi-automatic rifle like a Ruger 10/22 is a gun that is actually more fun (and cheap) to own most of the time.

An over/under double barrel shotgun is also a fun firearm to work with.

When it comes to handguns, I have always felt that owning a revolver is a better bet for most people most of the time, simply because it's an easier type of gun to work with and is less likely to accidentally discharge (JMHO, of course).

[AgAuMoney]

In a SHTF scenario many people are concerned about the availability of ammunition.

The U.S. and NATO standards are 5.56mm (slightly more powerful than SAMMI "sporting" spec .223) rifle and 9mm pistol.

The former eastern block and all the AK-47's around the world standardized on 7.62x39mm.

In specialty areas of the U.S. military other calibers are used.  Sniper rifles most frequently use .308 but there are many .300 win mag and some .338 lapua mag.  Some special units still carry .45 pistols.  12ga shotgun are not uncommon.

In some areas of the world it is illegal for civilians to own firearms in military calibers.  Other than such legal restrictions, military calibers seem to me to be the most likely to have ammo available after SHTF.


So I'd recommend:

AR-15 (typically called the "black rifle" but available in most any color now days) in 5.56mm NATO.

9mm pistol such as Glock 17 or Beretta 92fs

12ga shotgun such as Mossberg 590 or Remington 870 or a beretta autoloader

Scoped hunting rifle in .308 (or maybe .300 win mag or .338 lapua to give yourself a beating)


learning/plinking/completeness/other:

quality spring driven (1 motion not pump up) air rifle in .177 benjamin or gamo or at least crossman.

Ruger 10/22 (I like the new takedown model)

S&W or taurus .357 N-frame (or at least K frame) revolver with 6" (or at least 4") barrel.

Smaller pistol for carry such as ruger lc9 or taurus 709 slim in 9mm.

High quality 1911 pattern pistol in .45acp.

[dualstow]

I second both Adam A's revolver suggestion and MT's pump-action suggestion for a shotgun.
I'm in a restrictive city which lies within an otherwise unrestrictive state. I will probably get a revolver and a pump-action shotgun, though I'm still practicing shooting and am in no hurry.

I might just get a 20-gauge because my wife is really, really petite.

Although I don't recommend buying it despite the urgings of one of my gun-nut friends, check out the pictures and manual for the shotgun made by KSG. It's so sweet.

I live in New York City and am not allowed to protect myself.

LOL, I think that sums up NYC pretty well. I have a cousin there who wants to store his guns in my basement. No thanks.

[craigr]

My input in a nutshell:

- Focus on NATO/US Military standard calibers. That's 9mm for pistol, .223 or .308 for Rifles and 12 Gauge for shotguns. Reason? If ammo is ever banned, you'll always find this stuff on the black market. For US Persons, .45 for pistol would also be a good choice as it is very common. I would avoid any exotic or new rounds claiming to offer superior performance, etc. They may, but the above mentioned rounds have killed millions of people quite effectively in major theaters of war and are well proven and easily found.

- Get a pistol first. They are compact and easily carried without raising alarm. They are portable protection if you need to leave your house to go to work, etc. during dangerous times (who says there will be no economy in an emergency?). They are also something you can always have with you for errands, etc. It's hard to go wrong with a Glock 19. Compact and extremely reliable. Parts widely available in the rare case one breaks.

- Get a rifle next. An AR-15 is a good choice again because it is US Military standard and parts easily found. It is also very accurate and reliable and has good stand-off distance and large capacity magazines are easy to find. Nothing like having 30 rounds in the rifle and another 30 round magazine in a back pocket (actually I only load about 27-28 in these magazines as it makes it more reliable). They are also easy to shoot for women, children and people of small stature so training them to use this rifle is easier. A rifle gives you stand-off distance and much better accuracy than a pistol because of the longer sight radius.

- I would avoid anything fancy on the your AR-15 rifles. Standard upper with iron sights with 20" barrel is excellent and well proven. When I taught a marksmanship course the people with lots of gadgets hanging on their guns found they all rattled off or failed after a few hundred rounds of constant shooting. Many times parts like laser sights, etc. would fail. Batteries would also die in the middle of the course. Iron sights always work and are easy to adjust in the field.

- If you want a .308, consider a simple bolt rifle or M1A. The M1A is a very reliable general purpose rifle that could be used for just about any task from defense to big game hunting. Iron sights don't break easily and can be used to 600+ yards even by average shooters with some practice. The Remington 700 is ubiquitous and parts widely available, but it probably needs a scope mounted so the scope failure is a possibility.

- I actually don't like shotguns that much. They hold limited ammo and are hard to handle. They are hard to reload under stress. I'd rather have 30 rounds of .223 in my magazine than 8 rounds of 12 gauge in a shotgun myself. A .223 round at close range is just as fatal, and the .223 can work at hundreds of yards where the shotgun cannot.

- A Ruger 10/22 is a great rifle to practice cheaply. I'd get one and learn to shoot it well with iron sights.

- You're better off with a good pistol and rifle you know you can operate and shoot well than dozens of guns you have less familiarity with. A 9mm handgun and AR-15 would be two choices that you could own and know you have everything covered. Or a 9mm and M1A if you want a more powerful round for more duties than close in defense.

[BearBones]

THANKS! Now, where do I get these beasts? I have a gun club with shooting range nearby, so I can try them out there. Should be interesting, a well dressed, pacifist, vegetarian, liberal type at a gun club. Ha! The things I do for a well rounded portfolio!

[craigr]

For AR-15 I'd get a Bushmaster. They are reliable and reasonably priced.

If you want M1A, get a Springfield standard M1A. They are also reliable, but much more than an AR-15.

A Glock 19 is a Glock 19. They are sold everywhere.

After that, it's about getting ammo and practice. Also get some spare magazines. If you have a shooting range nearby, ask if they offer pistol rentals so you can try out some varieties to see what you like best before you buy. But again I'm partial towards the Glock simply because it may not be the best in every category, but it's good in all of them.

Some Rifle clubs allow guests. You may want to ask if they have any open house days where members bring rifles for people to shoot and try out.

You may think you're a liberal type, but knowing how to handle a rifle safely could be a useful skill. Even if you don't end up owning any firearm, it's good to know how to load, unload and operate them safely.

[Bean]

THANKS! Now, where do I get these beasts? I have a gun club with shooting range nearby, so I can try them out there. Should be interesting, a well dressed, pacifist, vegetarian, liberal type at a gun club. Ha! The things I do for a well rounded portfolio!

First, take a gun safety course.  If they allow rentals, always rent before you buy.  Make sure you feel comfortable with whatever you buy.  Once you buy, practice at least once a month.  I can not emphasize this enough, practice.  People with guns and only 1 day at the range scare the heck out of me.

[MediumTex]

I want to echo the AR-15 recommendations.

Shooting this rifle is a lot of fun.  It is compact, accurate, reliable and has almost no recoil.

[Coffee]

I'm going to kick in my .02 cents:

- There is no "one gun" that suits all purposes.  Guns are tools, and just like there is no "one tool" -- you need to find what works for the job you're doing.

- If you buy a revolver, buy it last, after you've bought everything else.  And only if you have money to blow.  I've taken quite a few tactical handgun courses, and without fail, the guys in class with revolvers were at a distinct disadvantage.  Even when they were the most experienced shooters in the class.  When the SHTF, having to stop and reload so frequently can be the difference between winning and losing.

- Training is more important than the gun.  Budget your time and money for training.  Lots of training.  Plan on taking at least one course a year, at the bare minimum AFTER you've reached a level of competency.  Preferably, you should be practicing at least once a month.  Shooting is a perishable skill.

- Practice carrying your handgun.  Holsters, especially concealed carry holsters, are a pain.  It's not a one size fits all experience, and the right holster can take time to get used to.  Or, to decide you don't like it and need something else.  It would be folly to discover this at a later time when you don't have access to a replacement holster.  Same with slings, to a lesser extent.

- Be realistic about your purchases.  I live in a city.  I won't be taking any 1000 yard shots with my vision and in my city.  I hate cleaning my guns and I have the mechanical ability of a monkey.  The AK is a good rifle for me. With porous borders in this country and an active community of reloaders, I'm not worried about finding ammo for the AK.

- If somehow guns are banned, most likely the shotgun will be the last gun to go.  The variety of things you can use a shotgun for make it almost the multi-tool of the gun world.  If I had to choose only one gun, I would choose the shotgun.  Bird shot for birds and snakes, buck shot for manstoppers, slugs for bigger animals. There's a reason the hillbillies in the deep bush all keep a shotgun.

And remember: In a long term SHTF, you most likely won't have ammo for most of your guns and will end up selling all but one or two of your guns, out of practicality.  At the same time, everyone else will be doing so, too.  Imagine if one round of .45 was $10.  In Costa Rica, a round of .45 costs .50 cents and your average cop makes about $120 a week.  Imagine if you were in that situation?  You'd probably be shooting 9mm, too, because it's cheaper.

YMMV.

[Pointedstick]

This thread is full of great information. Nearly everything I was going to say has already been said, but let me add this: try out a lot of guns at the range and handle a lot in the store before you buy (other than a Ruger 10/22, just pick one of those up today!  ). Everyone's hands and arms are different, and some guns just might not fit you. My hands are too small for Glocks for example; my thumb can't reach the magazine release without first rotating the gun with my support hand. On the other hand, I found that Kahr pistols fit me like a glove, so that's what I have. AR-15s are great because they fit just about anyone, especially lightweight models with an adjustible stock. Try to avoid buying an AR-15 with an "M4" profile barrel, which is unnecessarily heavy. I'd look for something lightweight. IMHO, this would be a very good, inexpensive starting AR-15: http://www.del-ton.com/DT_Sport_p/dtsport.htm

If you have any mechanical skills and wanted to save a lot of money, you can buy 99% of that rifle in kit form over the internet, and supply your own lower receiver (the part classified as the firearm by the ATF): http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt103.htm

Both of those choices look like they need a rear sight, like this one: http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/ind ... ory_ID=234

[Ad Orientem]

My recommendations are largely inline with what's already been posted with just a couple add-ons.

Sidearms: A major factor often overlooked is convenience of carry. A lot of people advocate large framed hand cannons. But a better recommendation is to go with the weapon you are most comfortable carrying concealed on your person and that has respectable stopping power. Remember that in a pinch the .22 derringer in your shorts pocket will do you a lot more good than the high capacity Glock 9mm sitting on the nightstand at home because it's too big for comfortable/convenient carry. This is very much a matter of personal comfort so your mileage will vary here. My favorite carry weapon has always been my old Taurus Model 85 .38 spl stainless with fixed sights and and a 2" barrel. I could carry it comfortably while wearing shorts and a T-shirt. For more serious business I would go with either a high capacity 9mm or a .357 mag revolver. An M-1911 .45 is also an excellent choice. Revolvers have certain advantages, fewer moving parts, more user friendly and mechanically more reliable. Semi-autos have the extra bullets. For sheer stopping power you are going to have a hard time beating a .125 grain 357 magnum hollow point.

Long arms: I concur with the AR-15 for all of the reasons already enumerated by others. I also like a 12 gauge shotgun which is an excellent choice for hunting and close to intermediate range defense work. You will want to have a supply of both .00 buck and slugs. Lastly I would also suggest a 20 gauge shotgun. While not ideal for defense work it is extremely useful for bird hunting.

Ammo for all of my recommendations is readily available and in sufficient supply that it should be obtainable in the event of a short term disruption in production.

[MediumTex]

I have always been mystified by fans of the .45 M-1911.

To me, it always seemed to have poor accuracy, lots or recoil, low capacity magazine and without double action seemed less likely to be ready to shoot quickly (unless you want to leave it cocked all the time).

I used to work at a car wash in high school and would see all sorts of things in people's cars.  One day I was vacuuming an old lady's Cadillac and saw a cocked .45 laying under her seat.  "Geez", I thought to myself.  Very unsafe.

Tell me about all the great things about a .45.

Wouldn't a .40 caliber Glock do everything a .45 does, plus a lot more?

[Pointedstick]

I don't think there's anything inherently dangerous about a cocked 1911. It's got a manual safety and a grip safety that have to be disengaged before it'll fire. By comparison, my 9mm Kahr is a trigger-cocking DAO with a 5 lb trigger pull and no safety. I would think that makes it easier to accidentally fire with poor handling, not harder.

[Ad Orientem]

I think the .45 suffers from the same drawbacks that most semi-autos do compared with revolvers. They are higher maintenance and require a greater level of practice/training to become proficient in their use. They are also more expensive. The main advantage of .45 over a high capacity 9mm is that when judiciously loaded you have better stopping power with less penetration. This minimizes the risk of unintended casualties, especially in an urban environment. One other advantage is that the M-1911 is comparatively easier on maintenance than most 9mms. The drawback is fewer bullets.

[Pointedstick]

I think the .45 suffers from the same drawbacks that most semi-autos do compared with revolvers. They are higher maintenance and require a greater level of practice/training to become proficient in their use. They are also more expensive. The main advantage of .45 over a high capacity 9mm is that when judiciously loaded you have better stopping power with less penetration. This minimizes the risk of unintended casualties, especially in an urban environment. One other advantage is that the M-1911 is comparatively easier on maintenance than most 9mms. The drawback is fewer bullets.

Actually, .45 penetrates more deeply due to the greater inertia of the bullet, while the stopping power of nearly all pistol rounds is pretty much identical, especially when using modern ammunition. I have a bunch of links to support these assertions that I'll add in a few hours.

[Lonestar]

Excellent advice in all the above posts.  To the OP, a lot may depend on your skills and experience with handguns/rifles.  For reliability and ease of use I would have to go with the .357 revolver and a good high capacity shotgun.

My reason being reliability.  You are just not going to have any failures to feed with either.  Also, they will eat any ammo you feed them.  No matter how effective the weapon is, if you have a FTF or a failure to eject are you going to be able to clear the weapon fast enough?

Regarding the shotgun, at close range using buckshot, the 20ga. has great knockdown power with less recoil.  Again, goes back to experience, will heavy recoil interrupt your reasoning process.  Personally, I prefer a 12ga. for self-defence but you want go wrong with a 20 especially at close range.

By the way, beg, borrow, steal all the ammunition you can find.  I have more fear of ammunition regulation or added taxation near term than I do gun legislation.  Four years ago you could find guns, but most stores had no ammunition on the shelves for months.  Just my humble opinion.

[Bob]

I have a Ruger 10/22 which I purchased while in college 40 years ago.  Last December, I was at the Gun Store in Las Vegas and noticed that they had an extended magazine for the Ruger 10/22 - I think it holds 30 or 40 rounds.  Anyway, the sales person at the Gun Store asked me where I was from and how I was traveling.  I asked why did that matter.  She said that if I was going to California, I could be arrested for even having that magazine in the car with me as extended round magazines are illegal.  I told her I was driving back to Texas and would be going through AZ and NM.  She said those states were OK in regards to having an extended magazine.  Living in the San Antonio area, you tend to forget about the limitations that other states have placed on their citizens in regards to firearms ownership, ammo sales, and even the type of magazine you can purchase for your Ruger 10/22. 

[MediumTex]

I see there is a Glock available in .357.

That would be a fun gun to shoot.

[Pointedstick]

the 45 is a well known man stopper i am curious to see pointed sticks ballistic links, the clam that all pistol rounds all have the same stopping power goes against most of what i have heard on the topic. plenty of possibility my information is out of date however so i will keep an open mind

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm

In particular, this graphic:



This is a fun resource too: http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[BearBones]

You all are making a good case for having a limited arsenal and learning to use what you've got well. So, if I had a Glock and an AR-15, what would I use to hunt deer? Also, I have a lever action .22 that I had as a kid (Winchester 9422). Would I still enjoy a Ruger 10/22?

[Pointedstick]

You all are making a good case for having a limited arsenal and learning to use what you've got well. So, if I had a Glock and an AR-15, what would I use to hunt deer?

Anything chambered in .243 upwards. If I hunted deer, I'd probably use a bolt action rifle in .308 since that's a relatively common military caliber, and if I ever (drooool) bought an RFB it would fire the same ammunition.

Also, I have a lever action .22 that I had as a kid (Winchester 9422). Would I still enjoy a Ruger 10/22?

Nah, you don't need it then. Your lever-action .22 is probably cooler anyway since it's older and I imagine it will have more character. Got any pics?