School Choice Upheld in Alabama

[MachineGhost]

To paraphase Bush, "School choice is on the march!"  By 8 to 1, the justices rejected all ten legal claims brought by the teachers' unions.  LOL

[quote=http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/2 ... /150309920]The Alabama Supreme Court on Monday upheld a GOP-championed school-choice law that gives tax credits to help some families pay for private school.

The justices said the law does not violate restrictions on giving public funds to private, religious schools because the tax credits go to parents and to scholarship program donors, not to the schools. They also said Republican lawmakers acted legally when they passed the bill the same night that it was introduced in a conference committee.

Senate President Pro Tem Del Marsh called the decision a win “for parents and children trapped in failing schools across the state.”? [/quote]

[I Shrugged]

I think that at some point, once private schools are even indirectly getting govt money, they will be forced into toeing the govt line.

[Libertarian666]

I think that at some point, once private schools are even indirectly getting govt money, they will be forced into toeing the govt line.

Yes, that is the libertarian argument against "vouchers" or the like, and a good argument it is too.

that would be a terrible result for a great idea, getting government out of education and getting parents and free market (money moving to the best product/result) into education would be the best thing that could happen to this country.. having government dumbing down private education would be the worse... the idiots in power rely on a large population of idiots to keep voting for them and to remain distracted by important issues like kardashian photos instead of corruption and tyranny.

[MachineGhost]

Yes, that is the libertarian argument against "vouchers" or the like, and a good argument it is too.

Baby steps...

[moda0306]

I'm sorta torn on this issue.

On one hand, I believe that top-down control of the information stream to children is a bad thing, and that giving people vouchers and freedom with how to use them is good on paper.

On the other hand...

- Parental control on education sounds great, but the last thing we need is for the liberal and conservative echochambers around kids minds tightened even more than they already are.  I tend to think "school choice" just solidifies the doctrine of parents into their kids...

- But they aren't really "their kids."  Kids are not property.  I think parents constantly lying to and manipulating their kids' thinking is a bad thing.  School choice would only entrench that.

- Bible belt schools will do an even more piss-poor job of educating their kids about science.  Young-earth creationism will be rampant and dumb us down even more as a country.

- Centralized education systems all over the world are kicking our @ss.  There is little empirical evidence to suggest, from what I've seen, that school choice results in an overall more educated public vs a more centralized system of education.

Sure, school choice can work for SOME people, which is a good thing for high achievers.  But overall, would society really benefit from it?  I'm not that confident.

I really wish that kids' outcomes wasn't so directly tied to a combination of their idiot parents or the government.  No wonder they're so damn disobedient.  Their options for who to listen to are often pretty piss-poor.

[MachineGhost]

- Centralized education systems all over the world are kicking our @ss.  There is little empirical evidence to suggest, from what I've seen, that school choice results in an overall more educated public vs a more centralized system of education.

As WiseOne said elsewhere, its not a fair comparison to compare the USA to other country's educational outcomes which exclude the stoopid in test scores unlike us.

I share your unease in regards to further extremism also, but what is the alternative?  The Democrat teachers' unions don't give two shits about the children (especially poor or disabled), only their job security and wages.  If we are doomed to having a government then we are doomed to crony capitalism, so the best approach is not to give the government any power in the first place.  On balance, what is the worser crime against the public interest, the legionne of high school dropout gangbangers or the homeschooled brainwashed religious nuts?

[moda0306]

MG,

The unions may not care about kids, but from my experience, teachers care far more about kids than your average conservative strongly banging on the drum school choice.  Teachers that I've seen usually really want to see kids do well (while, yes, getting paid decent and having good security/benefits).  That's why they took a job having to deal with 30 psychopaths in a room for meager pay and even more meager chances of finding a job (from what I hear the current environment for graduating education majors isn't ideal).

Unions are an odd animal... partially defending/legitimizing their own existence... partially actually doing their job... but that's pretty much any large, bureaucratic private-sector player, including the corporations from whom we buy a bunch of shit we don't need.

Unions are just another private sector player that sometimes get caught up in the cronyism if government is demanding its output, no different than corporations.  If governments are going to purchase goods and services, they're going to have to do that from someone.  If that service is labor, they have to deal with unions, often.  If that service/goods source is building contractors, defense contractors, systems coordinators, etc, they deal with cronyism and ulterior motives from those groups.

[moda0306]

Oh, and what's this business about other countries not reporting their unintelligent kids?

I'd never heard that one.  Not unbelievable of course....

[MachineGhost]

You're assuming teachers' unions are private.  Charter schools, MOOC, etc. don't employ union teachers.  The NEA is held hostage by a public union.  So you have the worst of both a union and a corporation along with a government takeover.  Back in the day, Reagan campaigned on abolishing the NEA.  How well did that attempt go?  How bad do we really need that now?

But, yeah I don't think conservatives are really into the multi-culturalism, integration, diversity shtick at all -- they're intolerant assholes worried about "contamination", most especially when combined with Wall Street hubris and money.  But, if closed-minded religious extremism is the price we'll have to pay to have school choice so that a vastly larger current population of poor and disabled can get access to a superior education tailored to their needs, that's a choice I'm willing to make.  In my book, the needs of the superfluous many outweigh the needs of the elite few.  Nothing puts the lie to "equal opportunity for all" more than property taxes funding schools.  It's unjust.  School choice is a libertarian position, not conservative.

[Libertarian666]

the entire education paradigm (pretty much world wide) is corrupted by the adoption of a system that works against teaching critical thinking in-spite of any lip service they may give to claiming otherwise, school vouchers would take off and succeed beyond all expectations IF a small percentage of schools could shake the shackles of modern education and go back to teaching critical thinking.. those kids would excel so far beyond the norm, all other parents would want and need the same for their kids and drive the market in that direction, fundie christian conservatives and liberal lefty loon indoctrination would be left in the dust in terms of real world success.... that would be my hope for the direction school choice would take us in...

I'm pretty sure I know how the publik skool unions would respond to that: the same way as they did in NYC. And they are a very powerful pressure group that gives a lot of money to candidates of a certain political party.

sadly unions and the "certain political party" aren't the only force working toward dumbing down education (while claiming to be in favor of improving it) they are likely the worse... but all the politicians want a slow witted and easily manipulated public . Jeb Bush is pro common core, and he is far from being alone on that side of the isle.
there may be a small hand full of elected representatives who would like education to succeed, but they are a rare breed...

[WiseOne]

Oh, and what's this business about other countries not reporting their unintelligent kids?

I'd never heard that one.  Not unbelievable of course....

It's not quite that.  Other countries have different points at which students leave the educational system, depending on career paths and whether they pass required exams to advance.  For example, in the UK formal schooling ends at age 16, not age 18.  Those what want to continue and who pass an exam then take two years of pre-college ("A-levels").  So if you test UK 18 year olds compared to our 18 year olds, you've got two very different sample sets.

It would be great to see more charter schools and fewer crappy public schools - with Sheldon Silver out of the picture the NYS legislature might just increase the charter school cap.  And at this point anything that mayor de Blasio is for, a lot of people are going to be against :-)

[MachineGhost]

What's wrong with Common Core?  From what I've read about it, its a higher standard than the test out junx we have today.

[Libertarian666]

What's wrong with Common Core? From what I've read about it, its a higher standard than the test out junx we have today.

probably my biggest objection is that its a top down big government one size fits all system that wont fit many or most, it also has built in incentives for a "just teach to the test" education, which isn't education at all, just an easy out for bad teachers who cant really educate.

if you want to see some of the weird stuff common core is pushing just Google "common core math problems" i don't know if you should laugh or cry at the gibberish they use to teach basic math..

also common core being top down, one size fits all, makes it an easy to use opportunity for indoctrination, i wouldn't be surprised to see ideology being subtly or not so subtly pushed on kids throughout their newthink common core "education"

How about this for indoctrination?
http://www.tpnn.com/2013/11/04/common-c ... -commands/

[moda0306]

How about this for indoctrination?
http://www.tpnn.com/2013/11/04/common-c ... -commands/

Woah.  If this is indicative of actual common core, it's a travesty.  I have my doubts (the article is very short and doesn't provide any real depth... oh and it's part of the "Tea Party News Network," which loses it some-but-not-all credibility to take on faith.

But that is B.A.D.  And I'm a dirty statist!

[Libertarian666]

How about this for indoctrination?
http://www.tpnn.com/2013/11/04/common-c ... -commands/

Woah.  If this is indicative of actual common core, it's a travesty.  I have my doubts (the article is very short and doesn't provide any real depth... oh and it's part of the "Tea Party News Network," which loses it some-but-not-all credibility to take on faith.

But that is B.A.D.  And I'm a dirty statist!

Ok, how about the Dallas Morning Snooze, which is hardly a Tea Party outlet?

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio ... nments.ece

But the publisher says it was "a mistake", so no problem, right?

Are you smarter than a Common Core fourth grader? Let’s find out. The problem is: Mr. Yamato’s class has 18 students. If the class counts around by a number and ends with 90, what number did they count by?
One board member answered “five”? by dividing 18 into 90. Mrs. Lamoreaux confirmed:
You know why? Because that’s what makes sense, right? That’s the way we were taught to do it in the fourth grade level.
Then she held up a Common Core math lesson that teaches students to solve this problem in a different way.
This, however, is what the Common Core Standards expect our fourth graders to do. If they solve it in those two steps they get it marked wrong. They are expected to draw 18 circles with 90 hashmarks solving this problem in exactly 108 steps. Board members, this is not rigorous. This is not college ready. This is not preparing our children to compete in a global economy.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/arkansas-mom-exposes-common-core-nightmare/#32KXX8McdH50dXVG.97

THIS IS TEACHING KIDS TO BE DYSLEXIC

[MachineGhost]

“Teresa was not sure what unions were, but she knew that a union could make their lives better,”? one line says.

lololool

Gwarsh, what would we all do without paranoid conservatives?

[MachineGhost]

Sadly, my personal experience with home schooled kids is that while they may be academically equal or even superior, they are socially awkward. Which should really comes as no surprise.

Well, that's no surprise since the overwhelming super vast majority of kids have been homeschooled by extremist religious nut parents.  But that's changing as more seculars adopt the practice in response to the lack of school choice.

[Pointedstick]

My experience is that the secular homeschooled are awkward as kids but make very capable adults.

[Greg]

My experience is that the secular homeschooled are awkward as kids but make very capable adults.

Agreed certainly to the point about the capable adults. Every adult that I find that was homeschooled seems to do quite well. That, and they normally were able to beat me academically (boooo...)