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The thing that really "sucks" to me is that where there's smoke there's fire. If our elected officials can't keep their stories straight about who is supposed to be our ally vs enemy and why, what is the fundamental motivation for it? It can't just be justifying past mistakes. There seems to be an intentional drive to all this that betrays an intense motivation for a certain outcome... not just complacency with the fustercluck we have (the latter of which can certainly be understood).dualstow wrote: Yeah, it sucks.
Welcome to the bright side!moda0306 wrote:The thing that really "sucks" to me is that where there's smoke there's fire. If our elected officials can't keep their stories straight about who is supposed to be our ally vs enemy and why, what is the fundamental motivation for it? It can't just be justifying past mistakes. There seems to be an intentional drive to all this that betrays an intense motivation for a certain outcome... not just complacency with the fustercluck we have (the latter of which can certainly be understood).dualstow wrote: Yeah, it sucks.
Add in the fact that this is all done in secrecy, and trillions of dollars are being thrown around every year, and you essentially get a system that I don't think is deserving of ANY of our trust without a ton of well-articulated support, evidence, and historical perspective. In fact, I'm getting to the point where I almost automatically assume manipulative intent.
Noriega was a good guy:Desert wrote:Our allies & enemies are constantly shifting, just like in Orwell's 1984. Reading that book during W's invasion of Iraq was a surreal experience. I felt like Orwell was writing it real time, with Fox News playing in the background.moda0306 wrote:The thing that really "sucks" to me is that where there's smoke there's fire. If our elected officials can't keep their stories straight about who is supposed to be our ally vs enemy and why, what is the fundamental motivation for it? It can't just be justifying past mistakes. There seems to be an intentional drive to all this that betrays an intense motivation for a certain outcome... not just complacency with the fustercluck we have (the latter of which can certainly be understood).dualstow wrote: Yeah, it sucks.
Add in the fact that this is all done in secrecy, and trillions of dollars are being thrown around every year, and you essentially get a system that I don't think is deserving of ANY of our trust without a ton of well-articulated support, evidence, and historical perspective. In fact, I'm getting to the point where I almost automatically assume manipulative intent.
Does the US really need allies like this? I mean, ultimately, what is the cost of just getting the hell out of that region of the world? We (most likely) lose access to the oil and the "summer driving season" isn't even a thing. But things could have been different, right?It’s not hard to understand why so many of the elite sectors of the West want everyone to avert their eyes from this deep and close relationship with the Saudis. It’s because that alliance single-handedly destroys almost every propagandistic narrative told to the Western public about that region.
Does this support non-intervention aka armed neutrality? No one seems to come to that conclusion despite the sore experience of good guys turned bad guys over and over. It seems like we value the illusion of stability and fear the monster lurking under the bed rather than being pragmatic.MediumTex wrote: I could go on, but you get the point.
How do you feel about oil at $250 a barrel?barrett wrote: Does the US really need allies like this? I mean, ultimately, what is the cost of just getting the hell out of that region of the world? We (most likely) lose access to the oil and the "summer driving season" isn't even a thing. But things could have been different, right?
I think that after a few years of that, large numbers of gasoline-powered machines and vehicles would run on compressed natural gas or stored electricity. Nothing like good old fashioned economic incentives to spur change.MachineGhost wrote:How do you feel about oil at $250 a barrel?barrett wrote: Does the US really need allies like this? I mean, ultimately, what is the cost of just getting the hell out of that region of the world? We (most likely) lose access to the oil and the "summer driving season" isn't even a thing. But things could have been different, right?