Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess

[Xan]

Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny

Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".

If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.

Not saying he shouldn't have. But it's a tough spot.

[stuper1]

Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny

Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".

If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.

Plus at some point the guy stopped talking. That is a tough spot to be in, but even if your effort is ineffectual you have to at least say something. One of the three saying "Hey, get off the man's neck!" would have been enough to avert the whole mess.

I also fundamentally don't get it in that NO ONE is defending these guys. Seriously no one. And the result of these riots is very likely to be much greater segregation and racial hostility, once the effect of reduced law enforcement becomes apparent. Which I'm sure they will try to blame Trump for as per usual.

That's what you should get. The media is trying to divide America because number one they get more pay clicks and number two they think it will help Democrats. Nevermind if the effect of dividing America is to make all of our lives worse. As long as we get more Democrats in office they will eventually make things better. That is the thinking, although of course they are wrong.

[dualstow]

I also fundamentally don't get it in that NO ONE is defending these guys.

The police who were with Chauvin?
Maybe they'll end up in Netflix' 'Trial By Media' series if they come out with a second season.

[Libertarian666]

The thing is that statistically speaking the police kill more white criminals than they do black criminals, and yet the media only ever tell us about the black criminals that get killed. So, the whole thing is based on a lie. Can anyone imagine why they would tell us this lie? I can . . . the Democrats benefit when we are racially divided. Bingo, that's it. Nevermind that the country suffers when we are divided. All that matters is that the Democrats benefit.

2019 stats, these are just shootings, nothing about any other under the radar stuff like more harassment, 370 white, 235 black shot and killed
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/
Census, 13.4% pop is black, 76.5% white
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /IPE120218

Calculate the numbers (if I am doing my math right), blacks are 3.6x more likely to be shot and killed by police than whites.

Yes, but that statistic is misleading. Since blacks are charged with crimes at more than 3.6x the rate of whites (or Asians or Hispanics), it turns out that per encounter they are LESS likely to be killed by police than those of other races.

I'm not sure what the rate is exactly, since only a minority of crimes are prosecuted and still fewer end up with a conviction. However, black men are imprisoned at about 4x the rate of the general population, and more than 5x the rate of white men. I agree with complaints that a lot of these are manufactured offenses (e.g. drug possession), but that's an argument for legalizing street drugs, not for abolishing police - and it does not change the fact that an adversarial encounter with police was involved.

Yes, the more tense interactions you have with the police, the more likelihood there is that one of them will go badly. This isn't rocket surgery.

Of course I agree on the drug legalization issue. Drug laws are completely unauthorized by the Constitution. They realized that in the early 20th Century, which is why alcohol Prohibition required a Constitutional amendment.

[Libertarian666]

Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny

Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".

If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.

Not saying he shouldn't have. But it's a tough spot.

Yes, I agree.

[stuper1]

Instead of addressing the real problem, which is poor family structure in the black community, we will hear ad nauseam about systemic racism which really isn't there. And why? Because the media sees it as a wedge to divide the country and promote Democrats.

I agree on this, but I also have not seen any implementation that has come close to fixing this. Have there been any that anyone knows of? There has to be a democratic or republican leader who's had some level of success somewhere in addressing this? Or are you immediately called a racist if you call out the family structure issues, even if you are black?

Well, that's because the sad fact is that there is no implementation that will come close to fixing it. There are no government policies that are going to fix this problem. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

I think three factors caused this. First off, just the general decline in family values in the mid 1900s. The usual stuff, women working outside the home first voluntarily and then because they had to, casual sex becoming more accepted and then basically promoted by the entertainment industry, etc. Government welfare policy also hurt badly because it basically encourages people not to get married. The second thing is that many jobs of poor blacks and whites were taken by even poorer people in China and southeast Asia as our manufacturing moved off shore. So, now black men and women can't get a decent job to support a family. How can the government fix this without basically becoming a command-and-control communist system? The government could help a bit by not encouraging so much immigration, which has hurt job prospects domestically for poorer people.

The third factor I can think of will probably get me banned. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me or thinks I'm crazy or evil. I'm going to speak on averages here, not on any individual person. On average, black people are more muscular than white people. I don't know much about physiology, but I believe that more muscle is due to more testosterone. I believe that more testosterone leads to less impulse control. Without a good father figure in the home to channel the young person's energies, maybe we could expect that trouble comes more easily to THE AVERAGE young black male than to THE AVERAGE young white male. Maybe that's why there are more blacks in prison than whites.

I don't believe we have systemic racism. I have friends that are black. They seem to get along fine in society, because they are responsible. The people who seem to have problems with society don't seem responsible. Maybe it's not their fault. They had a bad upbringing. Maybe so, but if they do bad things, they are still going to end up in jail. In that sense, they are paying for the sins of the past, but if we don't deal with them we will just have lawlessness. It's very hard and in many cases virtually impossible to actually rehabilitate and change someone who grew up with poor parenting. They have too much baggage. It is possible on a spiritual level, but government programs will be of little help.

[Libertarian666]

Instead of addressing the real problem, which is poor family structure in the black community, we will hear ad nauseam about systemic racism which really isn't there. And why? Because the media sees it as a wedge to divide the country and promote Democrats.

I agree on this, but I also have not seen any implementation that has come close to fixing this. Have there been any that anyone knows of? There has to be a democratic or republican leader who's had some level of success somewhere in addressing this? Or are you immediately called a racist if you call out the family structure issues, even if you are black?

Well, that's because the sad fact is that there is no implementation that will come close to fixing it. There are no government policies that are going to fix this problem. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

I think three factors caused this. First off, just the general decline in family values in the mid 1900s. The usual stuff, women working outside the home first voluntarily and then because they had to, casual sex becoming more accepted and then basically promoted by the entertainment industry, etc. Government welfare policy also hurt badly because it basically encourages people not to get married. The second thing is that many jobs of poor blacks and whites were taken by even poorer people in China and southeast Asia as our manufacturing moved off shore. So, now black men and women can't get a decent job to support a family. How can the government fix this without basically becoming a command-and-control communist system? The government could help a bit by not encouraging so much immigration, which has hurt job prospects domestically for poorer people.

The third factor I can think of will probably get me banned. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me or thinks I'm crazy or evil. I'm going to speak on averages here, not on any individual person. On average, black people are more muscular than white people. I don't know much about physiology, but I believe that more muscle is due to more testosterone. I believe that more testosterone leads to less impulse control. Without a good father figure in the home to channel the young person's energies, maybe we could expect that trouble comes more easily to THE AVERAGE young black male than to THE AVERAGE young white male. Maybe that's why there are more blacks in prison than whites.

I don't believe we have systemic racism. I have friends that are black. They seem to get along fine in society, because they are responsible. The people who seem to have problems with society don't seem responsible. Maybe it's not their fault. They had a bad upbringing. Maybe so, but if they do bad things, they are still going to end up in jail. In that sense, they are paying for the sins of the past, but if we don't deal with them we will just have lawlessness. It's very hard and in many cases virtually impossible to actually rehabilitate and change someone who grew up with poor parenting. They have too much baggage. It is possible on a spiritual level, but government programs will be of little help.

I'm probably going to surprise some people here by saying that I think you are too pessimistic.
I've already posted my proposal to improve the situation by getting the government out of the way.
Very briefly, the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, and the War on Men have combined in the most pernicious way in the black community. End those wars and things will start to improve.

[WiseOne]

The third factor I can think of will probably get me banned. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me or thinks I'm crazy or evil. I'm going to speak on averages here, not on any individual person. On average, black people are more muscular than white people. I don't know much about physiology, but I believe that more muscle is due to more testosterone. I believe that more testosterone leads to less impulse control. Without a good father figure in the home to channel the young person's energies, maybe we could expect that trouble comes more easily to THE AVERAGE young black male than to THE AVERAGE young white male. Maybe that's why there are more blacks in prison than whites.

I know you're not crazy or evil, but there is a simple test you could apply to prove or disprove your hypothesis: If there were a genetic basis to crime, you should see it in Africa as well. It's not there. They're just as poor as American blacks - technically poorer actually, with much less in the way of government services (basically none), BUT they have a strong social structure, with extended families living in close proximity and near universal religious participation. I saw it all first hand.

There's crime in Africa for sure, but it is nowhere near what goes on in black neighborhoods in US cities. As a young single woman I traveled quite a bit in Kenya, sometimes alone, and was never in an uncomfortable situation even though I had things happen like the bus or car breaking down in the middle of nowhere several times (5 that I can remember off hand). I would feel a lot less safe wandering around in, say, Bed-Stuy.

[stuper1]

In Kenya, they have a strong family structure, so things work fine.

Here, they don't have a strong family structure, and things aren't working fine.

As a physician, do you agree with me that blacks on average are more muscular than whites, that muscle comes from testosterone, and that testosterone influences impulse control? I'm glad to be proven wrong.

I think it's a well-known stereotype around the world among almost every non-black culture that blacks are impulsive as a generalization. Does this stereotype have a physiological basis?

Isn't Africa known as the cradle of civilization? And yet, there's little history of great technological achievements from Africa. Is it racist to think that some groups are more short-term oriented than long-term oriented?

[stuper1]

Instead of addressing the real problem, which is poor family structure in the black community, we will hear ad nauseam about systemic racism which really isn't there. And why? Because the media sees it as a wedge to divide the country and promote Democrats.

I agree on this, but I also have not seen any implementation that has come close to fixing this. Have there been any that anyone knows of? There has to be a democratic or republican leader who's had some level of success somewhere in addressing this? Or are you immediately called a racist if you call out the family structure issues, even if you are black?

Well, that's because the sad fact is that there is no implementation that will come close to fixing it. There are no government policies that are going to fix this problem. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

I think three factors caused this. First off, just the general decline in family values in the mid 1900s. The usual stuff, women working outside the home first voluntarily and then because they had to, casual sex becoming more accepted and then basically promoted by the entertainment industry, etc. Government welfare policy also hurt badly because it basically encourages people not to get married. The second thing is that many jobs of poor blacks and whites were taken by even poorer people in China and southeast Asia as our manufacturing moved off shore. So, now black men and women can't get a decent job to support a family. How can the government fix this without basically becoming a command-and-control communist system? The government could help a bit by not encouraging so much immigration, which has hurt job prospects domestically for poorer people.

The third factor I can think of will probably get me banned. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me or thinks I'm crazy or evil. I'm going to speak on averages here, not on any individual person. On average, black people are more muscular than white people. I don't know much about physiology, but I believe that more muscle is due to more testosterone. I believe that more testosterone leads to less impulse control. Without a good father figure in the home to channel the young person's energies, maybe we could expect that trouble comes more easily to THE AVERAGE young black male than to THE AVERAGE young white male. Maybe that's why there are more blacks in prison than whites.

I don't believe we have systemic racism. I have friends that are black. They seem to get along fine in society, because they are responsible. The people who seem to have problems with society don't seem responsible. Maybe it's not their fault. They had a bad upbringing. Maybe so, but if they do bad things, they are still going to end up in jail. In that sense, they are paying for the sins of the past, but if we don't deal with them we will just have lawlessness. It's very hard and in many cases virtually impossible to actually rehabilitate and change someone who grew up with poor parenting. They have too much baggage. It is possible on a spiritual level, but government programs will be of little help.

I'm probably going to surprise some people here by saying that I think you are too pessimistic.
I've already posted my proposal to improve the situation by getting the government out of the way.
Very briefly, the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, and the War on Men have combined in the most pernicious way in the black community. End those wars and things will start to improve.

I hope you're right. But I don't think so. I am definitely a pessimist about such things. I probably wouldn't be interested in the PP if I were otherwise. I am an optimist about the possibility for individual spiritual change because I've seen that firsthand with many people including myself.

[Xan]

In Guns, Germs, and Steel, the theory is that people who were able to move east/west did better than those able to move north/south. Farming techniques etc translated to different places along lines of latitude than along lines of longitude. So areas that were temperate and contiguous to other temperate places (North Africa, Europe, Asia) did better than "vertically" aligned places (the Americas, Africa).

[stuper1]

I don't think that explains why people at different latitudes had different technological innovation rates, but maybe I'm slow.

[WiseOne]

In Kenya, they have a strong family structure, so things work fine.

Here, they don't have a strong family structure, and things aren't working fine.

As a physician, do you agree with me that blacks on average are more muscular than whites, that muscle comes from testosterone, and that testosterone influences impulse control? I'm glad to be proven wrong.
I'm not aware of any racial differences in testosterone. Also not sure about the more muscular part. There are some anatomical differences thought.

I think it's a well-known stereotype around the world among almost every non-black culture that blacks are impulsive as a generalization. Does this stereotype have a physiological basis?
I don't buy either of these assumptions. There is a black resident who I have worked closely with (on research & clinical) for the past 3 years. Impulsive is about the last word I would use to describe him. There are also black faculty members of my acquaintance who, similarly, could not possibly be consistent with that stereotype.

Isn't Africa known as the cradle of civilization? And yet, there's little history of great technological achievements from Africa. Is it racist to think that some groups are more short-term oriented than long-term oriented?
That's an interesting point. I've thought about that one though...it seems like technological achievements have a lot to do with environment. In cold weather you have to be more innovative just to survive. In Africa there is much less to drive you to make technical advances.
Not proof or anything, just a thought. I will also venture to say that there does seem to be a wholly different mindset. Very socially focused and less focused on things/achievements. Living in a rural village and attending Mass was truly an amazing experience - the cohesiveness was something way beyond my experience.

Here's a youtube video. You might think this is exceptional, but it's not - the masses I went to were all just like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chE3cAw ... dio=1&t=26

[stuper1]

Gotcha . . . I know it's not a fun or popular thing to talk about.

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

I certainly believe you about the social focus and cohesion. I'm not trying to denigrate any race. I'm sure every race has its strong and weak points. I also don't think it's wrong to talk about differences between races, but a lot of people disagree, and maybe they're right, at least in this country, given our shameful history where whites took brutal advantage of blacks. I think in some other countries people talk much more openly about racial differences and basically they just acknowledge them, laugh at them, and people just get along with each other while acknowledging their differences.

[yankees60]

In Kenya, they have a strong family structure, so things work fine.

Here, they don't have a strong family structure, and things aren't working fine.

As a physician, do you agree with me that blacks on average are more muscular than whites, that muscle comes from testosterone, and that testosterone influences impulse control? I'm glad to be proven wrong.

I think it's a well-known stereotype around the world among almost every non-black culture that blacks are impulsive as a generalization. Does this stereotype have a physiological basis?

Isn't Africa known as the cradle of civilization? And yet, there's little history of great technological achievements from Africa. Is it racist to think that some groups are more short-term oriented than long-term oriented?

That might be indisputable using the NFL and the NBA was key pieces of evidence?

Vinny

[yankees60]

Gotcha . . . I know it's not a fun or popular thing to talk about.

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

I certainly believe you about the social focus and cohesion. I'm not trying to denigrate any race. I'm sure every race has its strong and weak points. I also don't think it's wrong to talk about differences between races, but a lot of people disagree, and maybe they're right, at least in this country, given our shameful history where whites took brutal advantage of blacks. I think in some other countries people talk much more openly about racial differences and basically they just acknowledge them, laugh at them, and people just get along with each other while acknowledging their differences.

To repeat my point, as a percentage of the American NBA players I'm sure that the black portion would be much higher than 70%.

Vinny

[yankees60]

Gotcha . . . I know it's not a fun or popular thing to talk about.

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

I certainly believe you about the social focus and cohesion. I'm not trying to denigrate any race. I'm sure every race has its strong and weak points. I also don't think it's wrong to talk about differences between races, but a lot of people disagree, and maybe they're right, at least in this country, given our shameful history where whites took brutal advantage of blacks. I think in some other countries people talk much more openly about racial differences and basically they just acknowledge them, laugh at them, and people just get along with each other while acknowledging their differences.

you might need to consider as a possibility that American blacks vs africans have been changed by slavery, they were bred and killed based on characteristics, a willful and thinking slave, short life less breeding.... big strong slave life longer life, more kids

Would that have persisted 155 years after the last legal slaves? That's nearly 8 generations?

well i am not even remotely a geneticist so "i don't know"... but i suspect that unless there is a large influx of new genetic material, (mixing with non slave Africans and with other races) that after 8 generations you might still see strong signs of predominant characteristics. the number of pro athletes and a comparison of America to Africa might hint at the answer...

[WiseOne]

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

Don't you think that could be due to a cultural bias? In other words, black society generally values a football player more than, say, a physician or lawyer. The opposite is true among other societies e.g. Jewish communities.

Traditionally, Irish Catholics have made up the majority of the NYPD - but that's not so true anymore, as the force is now dominated by Hispanics. Does that somehow tell you about physical attributes of Irish Catholics? Or of Hispanics? And wouldn't the change argue against genetics as the primary driver?

Similarly, pro baseball used to be almost exclusively white. It's now largely Hispanic. Black players are very much a minority. How would you reconcile this with the football/baseball statistics, while relying on a genetic explanation?

The one instance where you could maybe argue a case for genetics: marathon running. Kenyan runners manage to win the NYC marathon every time. It's not muscle though, it's about their build (long legs) and the fact that track is very popular in Kenya.

[Libertarian666]

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

Don't you think that could be due to a cultural bias? In other words, black society generally values a football player more than, say, a physician or lawyer. The opposite is true among other societies e.g. Jewish communities.

Traditionally, Irish Catholics have made up the majority of the NYPD - but that's not so true anymore, as the force is now dominated by Hispanics. Does that somehow tell you about physical attributes of Irish Catholics? Or of Hispanics? And wouldn't the change argue against genetics as the primary driver?

Similarly, pro baseball used to be almost exclusively white. It's now largely Hispanic. Black players are very much a minority. How would you reconcile this with the football/baseball statistics, while relying on a genetic explanation?

The one instance where you could maybe argue a case for genetics: marathon running. Kenyan runners manage to win the NYC marathon every time. It's not muscle though, it's about their build (long legs) and the fact that track is very popular in Kenya.

Basketball used to be dominated by... Jews!

"The Philadelphia basketball team had a pint-sized but flashy star shooter. Its old school coach was more teacher than tough disciplinarian. References to the Biblical David abounded in the media.

"Sounds like the NBA's new media darling, the Philadelphia 76ers, who captured the hearts of much of America with their gritty determination.

"Nope. It's the South Philadelphia Hebrew Association SPHAs (pronounced "spas"), which dominated basketball in the 1920s and '30s. It's a team steeped in basketball lore.

"The flashy shooter was set-shot expert Inky Lautman and the Biblical David was the six-pointed star on the early SPHA's jerseys. The savvy coach was Eddie Gottlieb, who was also the owner of the most successful team in basketball history. "

(from http://www.jewishmag.com/45mag/basketba ... etball.htm)

[WiseOne]

#shutdownSTEM

A one-day "strike" by researchers in STEM fields. Even prestigious journals have gotten into the act:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586- ... f%20racism.

This has seriously gone too far. How can you be a scientist and not understand how bogus the complaints are? I found out about it when a research group meeting was cancelled today because of it. I decided to honor the day by listening to a Candace Owens youtube video. Now back to work with me!

[Libertarian666]

#shutdownSTEM

A one-day "strike" by researchers in STEM fields. Even prestigious journals have gotten into the act:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586- ... f%20racism.

This has seriously gone too far. How can you be a scientist and not understand how bogus the complaints are? I found out about it when a research group meeting was cancelled today because of it. I decided to honor the day by listening to a Candace Owens youtube video. Now back to work with me!

Many scientists don't apply the scientific approach to the world in anything but their own field.
If they did, the world would be a better place.

[pp4me]

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

Don't you think that could be due to a cultural bias? In other words, black society generally values a football player more than, say, a physician or lawyer. The opposite is true among other societies e.g. Jewish communities.

Traditionally, Irish Catholics have made up the majority of the NYPD - but that's not so true anymore, as the force is now dominated by Hispanics. Does that somehow tell you about physical attributes of Irish Catholics? Or of Hispanics? And wouldn't the change argue against genetics as the primary driver?

Similarly, pro baseball used to be almost exclusively white. It's now largely Hispanic. Black players are very much a minority. How would you reconcile this with the football/baseball statistics, while relying on a genetic explanation?

The one instance where you could maybe argue a case for genetics: marathon running. Kenyan runners manage to win the NYC marathon every time. It's not muscle though, it's about their build (long legs) and the fact that track is very popular in Kenya.

What about IQ? Going there can be very dangerous as Charles Murray learned the hard way. That there are clear variations in IQ that can be broken down statistically by race I think he showed very effectively no matter how much people want to deny it. I've only read summaries of his work so I'm not sure whether he even posited that it was due to genetics but he is now a pariah for simply observing the obvious. I suspect that if Caucasians had come out on the bottom of the scale instead of just behind Jews and Asians that would probably be easily accepted but unfortunately it was blacks. So obviously this has to be due to "systemic racism" (translation - evil white people).

[stuper1]

You can have smart people and dumb people from every race, so nothing that can be said would apply to any one individual. It certainly seems possible to me that the average IQs of different races could vary. But then again it may not be the case. It seems a very hard thing to measure in an unbiased manner. I'm not sure what we would do with that information anyway in terms of setting social policies. To me, we have what we have, and we need to do the best with it, and set social policies to encourage every person to do the best with what they've got.

Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken. We can keep pouring boatloads of money into education, but if there aren't parents at home to encourage the kids, then it will make little to no difference. The policies that should be adopted are ones designed to strengthen the family, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that to happen, because those policies are not politically useful.

[WiseOne]

Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken. We can keep pouring boatloads of money into education, but if there aren't parents at home to encourage the kids, then it will make little to no difference. The policies that should be adopted are ones designed to strengthen the family, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that to happen, because those policies are not politically useful.

+1.

Remember the thread about how teachers in many inner city schools are forbidden to do anything to stop the violence & all out war that goes on in classrooms? because of race relation reasons?

Perhaps some community effort involving extended family counseling might help, but what it will require first and foremost is black leaders speaking up about the problem. I was hopeful that President Obama would do this, after he got off to a great start by admonishing inner city kids for dressing like clowns, with their pants down and underwear showing, and to "be respectful". Unfortunately, that was his last effort in that direction. I guess he must have got complaints for it.

[stuper1]

Limiting immigration and bringing back manufacturing jobs would go a long way toward helping working class people to be able to be responsible family members.