Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess

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sophie
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by sophie » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:14 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:17 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:41 pm
The thing is that statistically speaking the police kill more white criminals than they do black criminals, and yet the media only ever tell us about the black criminals that get killed. So, the whole thing is based on a lie. Can anyone imagine why they would tell us this lie? I can . . . the Democrats benefit when we are racially divided. Bingo, that's it. Nevermind that the country suffers when we are divided. All that matters is that the Democrats benefit.
2019 stats, these are just shootings, nothing about any other under the radar stuff like more harassment, 370 white, 235 black shot and killed
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/
Census, 13.4% pop is black, 76.5% white
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /IPE120218

Calculate the numbers (if I am doing my math right), blacks are 3.6x more likely to be shot and killed by police than whites.
Yes, but that statistic is misleading. Since blacks are charged with crimes at more than 3.6x the rate of whites (or Asians or Hispanics), it turns out that per encounter they are LESS likely to be killed by police than those of other races.

I'm not sure what the rate is exactly, since only a minority of crimes are prosecuted and still fewer end up with a conviction. However, black men are imprisoned at about 4x the rate of the general population, and more than 5x the rate of white men. I agree with complaints that a lot of these are manufactured offenses (e.g. drug possession), but that's an argument for legalizing street drugs, not for abolishing police - and it does not change the fact that an adversarial encounter with police was involved.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by sophie » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:19 am

technovelist wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:14 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:09 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:00 am
Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny
Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".
If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.
Plus at some point the guy stopped talking. That is a tough spot to be in, but even if your effort is ineffectual you have to at least say something. One of the three saying "Hey, get off the man's neck!" would have been enough to avert the whole mess.

I also fundamentally don't get it in that NO ONE is defending these guys. Seriously no one. And the result of these riots is very likely to be much greater segregation and racial hostility, once the effect of reduced law enforcement becomes apparent. Which I'm sure they will try to blame Trump for as per usual.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:20 am

technovelist wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:14 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:09 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:00 am
Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny
Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".
If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.
Not saying he shouldn't have. But it's a tough spot.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:38 am

sophie wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:19 am
technovelist wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:14 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:09 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:00 am
Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny
Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".
If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.
Plus at some point the guy stopped talking. That is a tough spot to be in, but even if your effort is ineffectual you have to at least say something. One of the three saying "Hey, get off the man's neck!" would have been enough to avert the whole mess.

I also fundamentally don't get it in that NO ONE is defending these guys. Seriously no one. And the result of these riots is very likely to be much greater segregation and racial hostility, once the effect of reduced law enforcement becomes apparent. Which I'm sure they will try to blame Trump for as per usual.
That's what you should get. The media is trying to divide America because number one they get more pay clicks and number two they think it will help Democrats. Nevermind if the effect of dividing America is to make all of our lives worse. As long as we get more Democrats in office they will eventually make things better. That is the thinking, although of course they are wrong.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by dualstow » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:15 am

sophie wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:19 am
I also fundamentally don't get it in that NO ONE is defending these guys.
The police who were with Chauvin?
Maybe they'll end up in Netflix' 'Trial By Media' series if they come out with a second season.
The new Freakonomics: Why Are Cities (Still) So Expensive? (Ep. 435)
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by technovelist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:30 am

sophie wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:14 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:17 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:41 pm
The thing is that statistically speaking the police kill more white criminals than they do black criminals, and yet the media only ever tell us about the black criminals that get killed. So, the whole thing is based on a lie. Can anyone imagine why they would tell us this lie? I can . . . the Democrats benefit when we are racially divided. Bingo, that's it. Nevermind that the country suffers when we are divided. All that matters is that the Democrats benefit.
2019 stats, these are just shootings, nothing about any other under the radar stuff like more harassment, 370 white, 235 black shot and killed
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/
Census, 13.4% pop is black, 76.5% white
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/ ... /IPE120218

Calculate the numbers (if I am doing my math right), blacks are 3.6x more likely to be shot and killed by police than whites.
Yes, but that statistic is misleading. Since blacks are charged with crimes at more than 3.6x the rate of whites (or Asians or Hispanics), it turns out that per encounter they are LESS likely to be killed by police than those of other races.

I'm not sure what the rate is exactly, since only a minority of crimes are prosecuted and still fewer end up with a conviction. However, black men are imprisoned at about 4x the rate of the general population, and more than 5x the rate of white men. I agree with complaints that a lot of these are manufactured offenses (e.g. drug possession), but that's an argument for legalizing street drugs, not for abolishing police - and it does not change the fact that an adversarial encounter with police was involved.
Yes, the more tense interactions you have with the police, the more likelihood there is that one of them will go badly. This isn't rocket surgery.

Of course I agree on the drug legalization issue. Drug laws are completely unauthorized by the Constitution. They realized that in the early 20th Century, which is why alcohol Prohibition required a Constitutional amendment.
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by technovelist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:30 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:20 am
technovelist wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:14 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:09 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:00 am
Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny
Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".
If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.
Not saying he shouldn't have. But it's a tough spot.
Yes, I agree.
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by technovelist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:32 am

sophie wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:19 am
technovelist wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:14 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:09 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:00 am
Is it true that one of the three was a rookie, it being only his third shift on the job?

Vinny
Oof, that's a tough spot. Going to jail for failing to tell the guy you're supposed to be learning everything from to lay off. Especially when he's saying things like "if you can talk you can breathe".
If that happens, you go over his head to his supervisor. "I vas chust following ordersss!" doesn't fly.
Plus at some point the guy stopped talking. That is a tough spot to be in, but even if your effort is ineffectual you have to at least say something. One of the three saying "Hey, get off the man's neck!" would have been enough to avert the whole mess.

I also fundamentally don't get it in that NO ONE is defending these guys. Seriously no one. And the result of these riots is very likely to be much greater segregation and racial hostility, once the effect of reduced law enforcement becomes apparent. Which I'm sure they will try to blame Trump for as per usual.
Yes, that is the game plan.
They've been trying similar tricks since before he was elected, and none of it has worked because he refuses to play along but calls out their BS instead.
That's the only reason he's still on his feet.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:49 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:21 am
stuper1 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:37 pm
Instead of addressing the real problem, which is poor family structure in the black community, we will hear ad nauseam about systemic racism which really isn't there. And why? Because the media sees it as a wedge to divide the country and promote Democrats.
I agree on this, but I also have not seen any implementation that has come close to fixing this. Have there been any that anyone knows of? There has to be a democratic or republican leader who's had some level of success somewhere in addressing this? Or are you immediately called a racist if you call out the family structure issues, even if you are black?
Well, that's because the sad fact is that there is no implementation that will come close to fixing it. There are no government policies that are going to fix this problem. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

I think three factors caused this. First off, just the general decline in family values in the mid 1900s. The usual stuff, women working outside the home first voluntarily and then because they had to, casual sex becoming more accepted and then basically promoted by the entertainment industry, etc. Government welfare policy also hurt badly because it basically encourages people not to get married. The second thing is that many jobs of poor blacks and whites were taken by even poorer people in China and southeast Asia as our manufacturing moved off shore. So, now black men and women can't get a decent job to support a family. How can the government fix this without basically becoming a command-and-control communist system? The government could help a bit by not encouraging so much immigration, which has hurt job prospects domestically for poorer people.

The third factor I can think of will probably get me banned. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me or thinks I'm crazy or evil. I'm going to speak on averages here, not on any individual person. On average, black people are more muscular than white people. I don't know much about physiology, but I believe that more muscle is due to more testosterone. I believe that more testosterone leads to less impulse control. Without a good father figure in the home to channel the young person's energies, maybe we could expect that trouble comes more easily to THE AVERAGE young black male than to THE AVERAGE young white male. Maybe that's why there are more blacks in prison than whites.

I don't believe we have systemic racism. I have friends that are black. They seem to get along fine in society, because they are responsible. The people who seem to have problems with society don't seem responsible. Maybe it's not their fault. They had a bad upbringing. Maybe so, but if they do bad things, they are still going to end up in jail. In that sense, they are paying for the sins of the past, but if we don't deal with them we will just have lawlessness. It's very hard and in many cases virtually impossible to actually rehabilitate and change someone who grew up with poor parenting. They have too much baggage. It is possible on a spiritual level, but government programs will be of little help.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by technovelist » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:59 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:49 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:21 am
stuper1 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:37 pm
Instead of addressing the real problem, which is poor family structure in the black community, we will hear ad nauseam about systemic racism which really isn't there. And why? Because the media sees it as a wedge to divide the country and promote Democrats.
I agree on this, but I also have not seen any implementation that has come close to fixing this. Have there been any that anyone knows of? There has to be a democratic or republican leader who's had some level of success somewhere in addressing this? Or are you immediately called a racist if you call out the family structure issues, even if you are black?
Well, that's because the sad fact is that there is no implementation that will come close to fixing it. There are no government policies that are going to fix this problem. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

I think three factors caused this. First off, just the general decline in family values in the mid 1900s. The usual stuff, women working outside the home first voluntarily and then because they had to, casual sex becoming more accepted and then basically promoted by the entertainment industry, etc. Government welfare policy also hurt badly because it basically encourages people not to get married. The second thing is that many jobs of poor blacks and whites were taken by even poorer people in China and southeast Asia as our manufacturing moved off shore. So, now black men and women can't get a decent job to support a family. How can the government fix this without basically becoming a command-and-control communist system? The government could help a bit by not encouraging so much immigration, which has hurt job prospects domestically for poorer people.

The third factor I can think of will probably get me banned. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me or thinks I'm crazy or evil. I'm going to speak on averages here, not on any individual person. On average, black people are more muscular than white people. I don't know much about physiology, but I believe that more muscle is due to more testosterone. I believe that more testosterone leads to less impulse control. Without a good father figure in the home to channel the young person's energies, maybe we could expect that trouble comes more easily to THE AVERAGE young black male than to THE AVERAGE young white male. Maybe that's why there are more blacks in prison than whites.

I don't believe we have systemic racism. I have friends that are black. They seem to get along fine in society, because they are responsible. The people who seem to have problems with society don't seem responsible. Maybe it's not their fault. They had a bad upbringing. Maybe so, but if they do bad things, they are still going to end up in jail. In that sense, they are paying for the sins of the past, but if we don't deal with them we will just have lawlessness. It's very hard and in many cases virtually impossible to actually rehabilitate and change someone who grew up with poor parenting. They have too much baggage. It is possible on a spiritual level, but government programs will be of little help.
I'm probably going to surprise some people here by saying that I think you are too pessimistic.
I've already posted my proposal to improve the situation by getting the government out of the way.
Very briefly, the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, and the War on Men have combined in the most pernicious way in the black community. End those wars and things will start to improve.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by sophie » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:02 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:49 am
The third factor I can think of will probably get me banned. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with me or thinks I'm crazy or evil. I'm going to speak on averages here, not on any individual person. On average, black people are more muscular than white people. I don't know much about physiology, but I believe that more muscle is due to more testosterone. I believe that more testosterone leads to less impulse control. Without a good father figure in the home to channel the young person's energies, maybe we could expect that trouble comes more easily to THE AVERAGE young black male than to THE AVERAGE young white male. Maybe that's why there are more blacks in prison than whites.
I know you're not crazy or evil, but there is a simple test you could apply to prove or disprove your hypothesis: If there were a genetic basis to crime, you should see it in Africa as well. It's not there. They're just as poor as American blacks - technically poorer actually, with much less in the way of government services (basically none), BUT they have a strong social structure, with extended families living in close proximity and near universal religious participation. I saw it all first hand.

There's crime in Africa for sure, but it is nowhere near what goes on in black neighborhoods in US cities. As a young single woman I traveled quite a bit in Kenya, sometimes alone, and was never in an uncomfortable situation even though I had things happen like the bus or car breaking down in the middle of nowhere several times (5 that I can remember off hand). I would feel a lot less safe wandering around in, say, Bed-Stuy.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:35 pm

In Kenya, they have a strong family structure, so things work fine.

Here, they don't have a strong family structure, and things aren't working fine.

As a physician, do you agree with me that blacks on average are more muscular than whites, that muscle comes from testosterone, and that testosterone influences impulse control? I'm glad to be proven wrong.

I think it's a well-known stereotype around the world among almost every non-black culture that blacks are impulsive as a generalization. Does this stereotype have a physiological basis?

Isn't Africa known as the cradle of civilization? And yet, there's little history of great technological achievements from Africa. Is it racist to think that some groups are more short-term oriented than long-term oriented?
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